Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 17 February 2026 [Draft]
17 Feb 2026 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Neurodivergence
May Dunsmuir
Watch on SPTV
Yes. I am not involved in the criminal justice system, but I want to make a couple of observations that pick up on something that Natasha Spassiani said. I wonder whether we could take a step back, because there is a piece missing.I have heard references to managing behaviour and behaviours. I wonder whether we fully grasp that someone who is neurodivergent will be experiencing points of distress or dysregulation rather than behavioural matters. If that is not well understood, what will be managed is the behaviour rather than the distress or the dysregulation. There is a world of difference between those things, and I think that we need to understand that better. Certainly in justice, we are now understanding it better. People are beginning to recognise that the symptomatology or outward expressions of the particular neurodiverse condition are quite distinct from behavioural disruption or choice in how someone behaves. It is a common misconception that the person is choosing to behave in a particular way when what they are emanating is actually distress or dysregulation. If we understood that better, the system would be built better, because that is the foundation.I absolutely agree with the point that Natasha Spassiani made about voice. Voice and co-design are parts of the Promise, which I am sure the committee is familiar with, and that is critical. We, too, have been trained by the National Autism Implementation Team, and its mantra is “difference, not deficit”. We need to understand that much better.In order to build systems in justice, certainly in my tribunal, we have had to go directly to those with lived experience. We are never going to get a better expert than those who are actually living it. It has been good to hear that people recognise the important point that every individual’s experience is individual. However, if we are going to establish confidence in the systems that those of us round the table represent, those who actually live with neurodiverse conditions need to have confidence that the systems that we generate are built on their actual experiences.I put a lot in the written submission to the committee, and I do not intend to rehearse all of that.Doing it that way was quite a different approach to take. It has given the children and young people who are the subjects, the parties or the witnesses in our proceedings the confidence to be able to speak more openly. They speak about not feeling that the space is right for them to be able to tell their own stories, and, in all the systems that are represented around this table, we must create the right environment.You will all be aware that the UNCRC—I think that you will know that that is short for the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child—was incorporated into Scots law a very short time ago. For anyone who is under the age of 18, as public authorities, we all have a responsibility to ensure that we do not act in a way that is incompatible with the UNCRC. There is a great deal in the general comments on article 12 about what weight we attach to the views of the child, as well as on the environment that we create so that an under-18-year-old is able to share their story well.Preparation for that is key, and I am not sure how well prepared someone who is neurodiverse who finds themselves in one of the systems that are represented here will feel. We had to do an awful lot of work on that in the tribunal. We had to focus on preparation. We might feel that we are preparing ourselves, but how well prepared the person who is at the centre of it is could be another matter. We cannot skirt around that now that the UNCRC is in Scots law. We have to apply it properly and well.If we listen to informed voices and work with them on developing the design, things will improve. Things will be better for the person who is neurodiverse if they have been involved from the very beginning. The problem with bringing them in quite far down the line is that confidence can be weakened and we might make many mistakes. I cannot tell you how often I have attempted to do something, then gone back to the voice of experience and had to rip it up and start again. Instead of doing that, we are far better going to the right starting point and building our systems around the individual experience and needs that neurodiverse people have.Thinking about voice and about difference, not deficit is not just a nice thing to do to—it is a critical thing. We must not get it the wrong way round. I appreciate all the questions that are coming—they are incredibly valuable questions—but I am thinking of some of the voices that I have heard, such as children and young people who say, “Ask the right question. Go to the beginning.” I am only speaking in relation to children and young people, but I would be very surprised if it was different for older individuals.My final point is that, although it is very common that the child or young person at the tribunal is neurodiverse, their parents might well be neurodiverse, too, so it is not just children and young people who we accommodate in our proceedings. We accommodate the wealth of people who attend our tribunals who are neurodiverse. It might not surprise you to know that the majority of the people on that side of the table will have neurodiverse needs.I said that that would be my final point. However, the full stop is that those who are not neurodiverse speak incredibly positively about the steps that have been taken to change the process and the experience. What we do well for those who are neurodiverse will have a positive impact on those who are not, because we will do it better.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the fifth meeting in 2026 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologie...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
I am the Scottish Green MSP on the committee, and its deputy convener.
John Good (Law Society of Scotland)
I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland criminal law committee; I am principally a defence lawyer.
Pam Gosal (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am a member of the Scottish Parliament for the West Scotland region, from the Conservative Party. I am also a member of the committee.
May Dunsmuir (First-tier Tribunal for Scotland)
I am the chamber president of the health and education chamber, which sits in the First-tier Tribunal for Scotland.
Sarah Angus (Scottish Prison Service)
I am director of policy at the Scottish Prison Service.
Marie McNair (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
SNP
I represent the Clydebank and Milngavie constituency. Welcome, witnesses, and thank you for your time this morning.
Dr Inga Heyman (Edinburgh Napier University)
I am associate professor in policing and public health at Edinburgh Napier University.
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am a member of the committee from the Scottish Conservatives, representing the North East Scotland region.
Laura Buchan (Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service)
I am a legal director with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, and I am one of its equality leads.
Paul McLennan (East Lothian) (SNP)
SNP
I am the MSP for East Lothian.
Superintendent Graeme Gallie (Police Scotland)
I am the partnership and preventions lead for Ayrshire and Arran, and I am also the national delivery lead for our neurodiversity strategic working group.
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I am a Labour MSP for the Highlands and Islands.
The Convener
SNP
We move online to Dr Natasha Spassiani, who joins us all the way from Toronto—I wonder if you have more sunshine there than we have here, Natasha. Please int...
Dr Natasha Spassiani (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health)
Good morning, everyone—and no, convener, it is still very dark here. I am a scientist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health research hospital in Toro...
The Convener
SNP
I know that it is quite an unsociable hour for you, but it is important that you are with us, so thank you for joining us.Thank you, everyone—you are very we...
Sarah Angus
I will start. With regard to prevalence, the SPS recently updated its education strategy, and as part of that, we commissioned research, through both literat...
Laura Buchan
I agree with Sarah Angus. It is difficult. One of the issues that COPFS identified when we were discussing the potential learning disabilities, autism and ne...
Superintendent Gallie
Police Scotland recognises that individuals are at the heart of everything that we do, and we have always taken a needs-based, trauma-informed approach. We r...
May Dunsmuir
I will speak specifically about the additional support needs tribunal, which sits in the health and education chamber. I wanted to make that clear, as it is ...
The Convener
SNP
That is really interesting. You do not think that neurodivergence is more prevalent; rather, there is perhaps just more understanding of neurodivergence over...
May Dunsmuir
The way into the tribunal is that a child or young person has to either have additional support needs or a disability. You do not need to have a diagnosis to...
Dr Heyman
To build on what everybody else has said, one thing that has happened more recently is that we have become aware that some people have been channelled down t...
The Convener
SNP
Okay—thank you. We now move to questions from Pam Gosal.
Pam Gosal
Con
I thank you all for the information that you have provided so far. Neurodivergent individuals, including those with autism, ADHD or learning disabilities, ar...
Laura Buchan
The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service is one part of the criminal justice system, along with Police Scotland, the defence bar, the judiciary, the Sc...
Superintendent Gallie
Police Scotland is acutely aware that data drives a lot of our business and how we approach things, and the systems that we have in place to collect that inf...
Dr Heyman
To build on what Superintendent Gallie said, Police Scotland is on a journey with regard to the identification of these elements. We are not there yet, but P...
Pam Gosal
Con
Thank you for those responses. I will come back to Superintendent Gallie, as something is worrying me. I am hearing from you about all the good stuff that is...
Superintendent Gallie
I will look at the identification element first. It is not the role of Police Scotland, as an organisation, to diagnose or screen someone for a neurodivergen...