Committee
Health and Community Care Committee, 10 May 2000
10 May 2000 · S1 · Health and Community Care Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Patrick Browne (Scottish Retail Consortium):
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Thank you, convener. I will start by introducing my colleagues, Roger Hammons, who is the company standards executive with Somerfield Stores Ltd and Bob Jamie, who is consultant to the Scottish Grocers Federation. Both organisations are members of our trade association. I am the director of the Scottish Retail Consortium.
I thank you for giving us the opportunity to come along today to voice our concerns about the butcher licensing regulations. I know that your time is precious. The fact that you have agreed to see us is much appreciated.
In relation to butcher licensing, the consortium represents all the major multiple retail outlets in Scotland. All of them are in our membership. We estimate that in excess of 500 multiple retail outlets will be affected by the butcher licensing regulations, which the committee is considering.
The committee has already seen our briefing note, which sets out our detailed concerns on butcher licensing regulations as they are currently worded. I stress that the consortium's concern, and that of our members, is not to undermine the regulations but to ensure that they are workable for our members and enforceable for the licensing and enforcement bodies.
We have fundamental concerns about the wording and intention of aspects of the regulations. Our fundamental concern is that they have been drafted with the intention of applying to stand-alone butcher shops. We are not convinced that multiple retail outlets have been taken into account in the drafting, especially when it is considered that multiple retail outlets tend, in the main, to sell a range of goods—a much broader range of products than raw meat and pre-packaged food products.
In the context of a multiple retail outlet, the regulations apply to the whole floor space in the store, not just the butchery part of the business. If members examine how a butcher's shop is defined in the regulations, we believe that that is the impression given by the regulations—if not the intention—as they are currently drafted.
Our members have some difficulty understanding why butcher-licensing regulations should extend to the whole of their stores instead of being focused on the relevant butchery parts of their premises. The issue of stores operating a mixed retail business has been addressed in the English and Welsh regulations; we have suggested a possible amendment to the Scottish regulations, which is included in the briefing note.
Our second concern relates to the definition of a proprietor. The regulations refer only to a business run by a "person" and imply—if not state—an issue of ownership of the business. Given that our members include plcs and private limited companies, we suggest that the definition needs to be amended—for the sake of clarity, if nothing else. That is particularly important in relation to concessions operated by one company in a different company's stores.
The issues of a mixed retail business and proprietorship are particularly problematic in the case of Kwik Save stores. I ask Roger Hammons to speak briefly to the committee on that specific point.
I thank you for giving us the opportunity to come along today to voice our concerns about the butcher licensing regulations. I know that your time is precious. The fact that you have agreed to see us is much appreciated.
In relation to butcher licensing, the consortium represents all the major multiple retail outlets in Scotland. All of them are in our membership. We estimate that in excess of 500 multiple retail outlets will be affected by the butcher licensing regulations, which the committee is considering.
The committee has already seen our briefing note, which sets out our detailed concerns on butcher licensing regulations as they are currently worded. I stress that the consortium's concern, and that of our members, is not to undermine the regulations but to ensure that they are workable for our members and enforceable for the licensing and enforcement bodies.
We have fundamental concerns about the wording and intention of aspects of the regulations. Our fundamental concern is that they have been drafted with the intention of applying to stand-alone butcher shops. We are not convinced that multiple retail outlets have been taken into account in the drafting, especially when it is considered that multiple retail outlets tend, in the main, to sell a range of goods—a much broader range of products than raw meat and pre-packaged food products.
In the context of a multiple retail outlet, the regulations apply to the whole floor space in the store, not just the butchery part of the business. If members examine how a butcher's shop is defined in the regulations, we believe that that is the impression given by the regulations—if not the intention—as they are currently drafted.
Our members have some difficulty understanding why butcher-licensing regulations should extend to the whole of their stores instead of being focused on the relevant butchery parts of their premises. The issue of stores operating a mixed retail business has been addressed in the English and Welsh regulations; we have suggested a possible amendment to the Scottish regulations, which is included in the briefing note.
Our second concern relates to the definition of a proprietor. The regulations refer only to a business run by a "person" and imply—if not state—an issue of ownership of the business. Given that our members include plcs and private limited companies, we suggest that the definition needs to be amended—for the sake of clarity, if nothing else. That is particularly important in relation to concessions operated by one company in a different company's stores.
The issues of a mixed retail business and proprietorship are particularly problematic in the case of Kwik Save stores. I ask Roger Hammons to speak briefly to the committee on that specific point.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
LD
Agenda item 2 is subordinate legislation. We have been approached by the Scottish Retail Consortium. It has some concerns about the Food Safety (General Food...
Patrick Browne (Scottish Retail Consortium):
Thank you, convener. I will start by introducing my colleagues, Roger Hammons, who is the company standards executive with Somerfield Stores Ltd and Bob Jami...
Roger Hammons (Scottish Retail Consortium):
Somerfield and Kwik Save are the same company. We operate more than 100 supermarkets in Scotland. Some fresh food operations in those stores are run by separ...
Patrick Browne:
Bob Jamie would like to make a specific point about the status of proprietors in Scotland.
Bob Jamie (Scottish Retail Consortium):
There is a third category of business ownership that is peculiar to Scotland and needs to be referred to specifically in the regulations. A Scottish partners...
Patrick Browne:
Our third concern relates to the training requirements that are set out in the regulations. I stress that the consortium is not questioning those requirement...
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
Thank you for giving us such a broad outline of the consortium's position. I have some reservations. As someone who does not normally use a butcher's shop, b...
Patrick Browne:
I will deal with the question about the possible impact on the operation of stores and, ultimately, on jobs. The regulatory impact assessment that accompanie...
The Convener:
LD
Your concerns relate not to the regulations as a whole, but to some of the practicalities.
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
You made a point about in-house training. How would the standard of that training be verified? In-house training can mean many things.
Roger Hammons:
There is a syllabus for training in basic and intermediate food hygiene. We would have to show to the local authority's satisfaction that the company's in-ho...
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
Would you envisage outside accreditors coming into a store, as they do in the case of Scottish vocational qualifications, to verify that the required standar...
Roger Hammons:
Many of the companies to which we are referring employ people in-house to check that the store managers and people in the store are carrying out the company'...
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
But that is all in-house.
Roger Hammons:
Yes, but they have to produce a separate report. Under the legislation on pricing and date marking, we have to be able to demonstrate reasonable caution and ...
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
Do you have any objection to external verifiers coming in to ensure that in-house training is meeting the required standard?
Roger Hammons:
We would object to a third party coming in. The external invigilators should be the local authority enforcement officers.
Irene Oldfather:
Lab
Kay Ullrich has already asked my question, which was about who would decide what was equivalent training, how it would be monitored, and what the quality con...
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
Have the trainers in your organisation been validated as qualified to discharge that duty?
Roger Hammons:
Yes, they have. There are basic, intermediate and advanced levels of hygiene training, and the regulations require certain people to have basic and intermedi...
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
Is that external training?
Roger Hammons:
Yes. It is carried out by environmental health bodies.
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
So the trainers are qualified.
Roger Hammons:
Yes, they are.
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I have a general question. I am not entirely clear about the practical effect of passing these regulations. There seem to be references in them to specific a...
Patrick Browne:
The issue is to ensure that the regulations apply to the parts of a store to which they should apply. As I said, our fundamental concern is that the regulati...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
What are the practical effects on other parts of the shop, given that most of the regulations are specific to those parts of the shop?
Patrick Browne:
The practical effect is the one that I addressed earlier in relation to catering premises in a store. If a coffee shop is part of a retail floor space and is...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
What would have to be done in the coffee shop that would be undesirable?
Patrick Browne:
The second issue is the point Roger Hammons made about concessions operating within stores. In trying to resolve that point, one has to deal with the mixed r...