Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 16 December 2025 [Draft]
16 Dec 2025 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with the Scottish Catholic Education Service, but we also want to engage ahead of stage 3 on how that will work in relation to the points that he raised about denominational schools. I am also mindful of my engagement with SCES on the issue, during which it pointed out that we would be talking about extremely small numbers of pupils in a Catholic education setting, because parents will have chosen to send their children to that school for faith-based reasons. However, we do not think that it is insurmountable that we will be able to address those issues at stage 3. I hear the concerns that the member has raised, and I hope that he takes some reassurance from the fact that we are already engaging with the Scottish Catholic Education Service. However, I am mindful of the committee’s report at stage 1, which recommended that we clarify the differences between RO and RME, and that is what we have sought to provide. I support Maggie Chapman’s amendments, and I encourage members to do the same. Stephen Kerr’s amendment 9A would explicitly state that the section inserted by amendment 9 applies to religious education in denominational schools as well as non-denominational schools. I do not think that that amendment is necessary, because the provisions in the bill already apply to both denominational and non-denominational schools. Moreover, there is a risk that amendment 9A would create confusion regarding whether other provisions in the bill and relevant sections of the 1980 act apply generally to denominational schools, which they do. I therefore hope that Stephen Kerr might not press the amendment—or, rather, that Tess White will not press it on his behalf. As we have heard, amendment 20 would require separate treatment of parental requests to withdraw a pupil from religious observance and RME respectively. Again, I do not consider that amendment to be necessary. However, if Maggie Chapman’s amendments are agreed to, part of that amendment is in effect obsolete, given that the right to withdraw from RME would be removed. It is worth pointing out that schools already make the differences between religious observance and RME clear to parents in discussions about withdrawal, and withdrawals are not always made from both. The legal requirement that exists to consider requests separately might result in additional burdens on schools, pupils and parents by requiring additional paperwork. I therefore encourage members to resist amendment 20. Finally, in relation to amendment 44, which provides the legal definitions of religious observance and RME, which is referred to in the 1980 act and therefore in the amendment as “instruction in religion”. As I said, I recognise the importance of drawing a clear distinction between RO and RME. Providing those definitions in legislation would reduce future flexibility for course content to evolve over time, as it does. It is worth remembering that the provisions in the bill originate from the 19th century and that the curriculum has evolved in multiple ways since that time, even since the passing of the 1980 act. Furthermore, definitions of religious observance and RME are already provided in the non-statutory guidance. Those definitions differ from the definitions that are listed in Mr Kerr’s amendments and, as they reflect Government policy, are preferable. Amendment 44 is therefore unnecessary and likely to create confusion, so I cannot support it. In summary, I encourage members to vote for amendments 9 to 17 and 19. I hope that Tess White, on behalf of Stephen Kerr, will not press amendments 9A, 20 and 44.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Karen Adam)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2025 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee in session 6. We have received no apologies ...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of Maggie Chapman, is grouped with amendments 9A, 10 to 14, 20, 15 to 17, 44 and 19.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Thank you, convener, and good morning to the minister and officials. Thank you for being here this morning and for the conversations that we have had about t...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am grateful to Maggie Chapman for taking my intervention so early on in her contribution. I recognise her view and that of the Scottish Green Party on the ...
Maggie Chapman
Green
The Scottish Greens accept that, in many ways, the situation that we have in Scotland in which, as you outlined, we have such denominational positions, is al...
The Convener
SNP
I draw members’ attention to the procedural information in relation to the amendments in this group, as is set out in the groupings. I call Tess White to mo...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Amendments 9A, 20 and 44, in the name of Stephen Kerr, would bring clarity and coherence to an area of education law that has become confused through age and...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank colleagues for their amendments in this group and for allowing us to have a wider debate about the scope of withdrawal rights and whether those shoul...
Maggie Chapman
Green
I appreciate Paul O’Kane’s comments about his frustration that we are discussing this now—that frustration was clearly expressed during the committee’s stage...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank Maggie Chapman for that intervention. I will certainly revisit the evidence that was taken, as I was not on the committee at that time. However, my u...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (Jenny Gilruth)
SNP
As we have heard, the amendments in group 1 relate to the scope of rights concerning the withdrawal of pupils from religious observance and/or religious and ...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I am keen to understand whether the cabinet secretary has thought about how that might happen. She will know, through her time as cabinet secretary and her c...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
Jenny Gilruth
SNP
Following our discussion, I have discussed that matter in detail with officials. I give Mr O’Kane assurance that they have already started engagement with th...
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to wind up.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments. I am sympathetic to some of the intention behind Stephen Kerr’s amendments but, like the cabinet secretary, I...
The Convener
SNP
I call Tess White to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 9A.
Tess White
Con
What has just happened in this first group shows that there are fundamental issues that should have been ironed out before we got to this stage. We are talki...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9A disagreed to.
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to press or withdraw amendment 9.
Maggie Chapman
Green
I press amendment 9.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 3, Abstentions 0. Amendment 9 agreed to. Amendments 10 to 14 moved—Maggie Chapman. 10:00
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian)...