Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 08 October 2025
08 Oct 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Colleges and Apprenticeships
We can all agree on the vital importance of skills and training. We know that the ability to obtain them substantially determines a person’s opportunities in life and, collectively, the success and dynamism of our economy. What we are debating is how best to use public funds and resources to support skills and training. There is no doubt that, in times of constrained public spending, more money cannot be the only answer. We need to properly explore the art of the possible and how to make the most impact with the resources that are available.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-19253, in the name of Murdo Fraser, on backing Scotland’s colleges and apprenticeships. I invite members ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Conservatives in Scotland believe that economic growth has to be the first priority of Government. That need has never been more urgent than now. The quarte...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Colleges are fantastic institutions, as you have said. They are the skills engine for the Scottish economy. You have rightly identified the issues that are h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Always speak through the chair.
Murdo Fraser
Con
Alexander Stewart is absolutely right to point the finger at the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government cannot blame the situation on Westminster or a...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green)
Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Murdo Fraser
Con
Yes, if I have time.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
There is really not very much time in hand. It is up to the member.
Murdo Fraser
Con
I will take a brief intervention.
Lorna Slater
Green
It is on a point of agreement, I think. The member will recall that the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard evidence that apprenticeship and other college ...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I absolutely agree with Lorna Slater’s point about the importance of apprenticeships in delivering skills for the future. The SNP’s response is to mess arou...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I call Richard Lochhead to speak to and move S6M-19253.3. Minister, you have up to five minutes. I apologise—I meant to call Ben Macpherson. You still have ...
The Minister for Higher and Further Education (Ben Macpherson)
SNP
My colleagues and I welcome today’s debate, which is on matters that are important to all of us as we represent our constituents. We also welcome the opportu...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
As Murdo Fraser said, it is encouraging to hear that from the minister. However, how does he square those words with the 20 per cent real-terms cut in the bu...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I will come on to the specifics in due course, but, in response to Ms Smith, and in general terms, I emphasise that our colleges, employers, universities and...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Does the minister accept any responsibility at all for the state of Scotland’s colleges?
Ben Macpherson
SNP
The Scottish Government is proud to work alongside Scotland’s colleges on how they are delivering as anchor institutions in our communities. Yesterday, I vis...
Lorna Slater (Lothian) (Green)
Green
We can all agree on the vital importance of skills and training. We know that the ability to obtain them substantially determines a person’s opportunities in...
Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Is Lorna Slater ashamed that the Government that she was a member of received £875 million, raised from Scottish employers through HM Revenue and Customs for...
Lorna Slater
Green
I share Craig Hoy’s frustration with the lack of transparency around how apprenticeship levy funds are handled. However, he should note that those funds are ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will the member give way?
Lorna Slater
Green
I am sorry, but I need to make some headway. The courses are offered on limited and inflexible days, so apprentices’ work weeks are inefficient, and their t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Ms Slater, you need to conclude.
Lorna Slater
Green
—that people graduating from those courses do not achieve well-paid work. I move amendment S6M-19253.2, to leave out from “that future” to end and insert: ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
It gives me great pleasure to follow Lorna Slater, who gave several very useful insights. This is a useful debate and—dare I say it—it stands in contrast to ...
Brian Whittle
Con
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
The member has only 30 seconds left to speak.
Daniel Johnson
Lab
I reiterate Murdo Fraser’s point that we need to look at reform. Much as Lorna Slater said, we need to look at how we flex our training and apprenticeship sy...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD)
LD
I feel so much better in this second Conservative debate, because the acceptable faces of the Conservative Party are back on the front bench again, giggling ...
Brian Whittle
Con
Will the member take an intervention?