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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 04 September 2025

04 Sep 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Water Industry Commission for Scotland (2022-23 and 2023-24 Audits)
Lumsden, Douglas Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

It gives me no pleasure to make this my first speech after recess.

I thank the committee for its forensic analysis of what went wrong at WICS. I welcome the convener’s contribution and the cabinet secretary’s words, which recognised the significant failings at the organisation.

The committee’s report catalogues a litany of errors that, at best, pushed the limits of the financial rules and that were, at worst, fraudulent. From a public viewpoint, there was clearly a massive waste of taxpayers’ money, which was used to line the pockets of quango fat cats who acted without fear of being caught or had some idea that they were untouchable and were simply taking what they were entitled to. From Mulberry wallets to lavish dinners, the culture of entitlement was rife. It is that spurious waste of taxpayers’ money that continues to undermine the confidence of the Scottish people in this devolved Government.

When those activities came to light and the chief executive was forced to resign, the Government continued to cost the taxpayer money with an ill-thought-out severance package. Audit Scotland said that that decision was taken too quickly and without considering the wider options. He should have been sacked for gross misconduct, not given a package to leave.

In Audit Scotland’s scathing report and in the committee’s report, we can see a culture of misspending, expenses claims that do not fit with policy and a flagrant disregard for ensuring benefit for the public purse. Audit Scotland found that WICS demonstrated poor governance over its finances, that there was little to no due process and that there was no concept of ensuring value for money. The way that senior officials used public money was simply “unacceptable”.

Audit Scotland also found that WICS needed to do more to ensure that it was delivering best value for money to the taxpayer. The board seemed to be disengaged with the day-to-day operation of the organisation, and oversight was not happening at any level. People need to understand that board membership for organisations such as WICS brings with it serious responsibilities, which seem to have been overlooked. Spending decisions were made without consultation with anyone, and the chief executive and senior management did not seek sign-off for large items of expenditure that should have been discussed.

Policies were in place but were ignored by the senior management team. That is a shocking state of affairs for any public body to be in. However, the list goes on. The committee’s report criticised the Scottish Government for not intervening on the WICS training policy. The Government was aware of the high cost of training, including—let us not forget—courses at Harvard University, which included all flights and accommodation, and we heard today that it was business-class travel.

The committee notes that there have been

“significant weaknesses and failings in the Scottish Government’s sponsorship of WICS. These have led to a failure to ensure appropriate safeguarding of public funds.”

More public money has been wasted. The report goes on to further criticise the Government for appearing to encourage the chief executive to negotiate an early exit date. That meant that a full disciplinary process that would have examined a full account of the failings at WICS by the chief executive never happened.

Although the financial irregularities are bad enough, there were also significant failings in the culture of the organisation, with high levels of bullying being reported by staff. There was a poor work culture after Covid, and there were failings by management to address issues among the staff. All that speaks to a breakdown in the operation of WICS and to a failure in oversight by the Scottish Government. That has led to massive waste of taxpayers’ money and a decline in trust in our public bodies among the Scottish people. Responsibility for that lies solely at the feet of the Scottish Government.

Although the committee has received a helpful response from the new chief executive that accepts the committee’s recommendations and talks about enacting remedial policies to fix the financial irregularities, the Scottish Government’s assurances fall short. The Scottish National Party has created a quango culture of organisations delivering services that should be under the purview of the Scottish Government.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-18680, in the name of Richard Leonard, on behalf of the Public Audit Committee, on the 2022-23 and 2023-2...
Richard Leonard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Being the convener of the Public Audit Committee is a privilege, and it is one which I will never take for granted. So I am grateful to be opening this after...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Reform) Reform
On that last point, does the convener agree that the committee never had an adequate explanation as to why the limit was removed?
Richard Leonard Lab
I thank Graham Simpson, who has been a very active member of this inquiry by the committee. I agree with him that there are still many unanswered questions. ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Climate Action and Energy (Gillian Martin) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak about the matters that are raised in the Public Audit Committee’s report on the Water Industry Commission for Scot...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (LD) LD
I make this intervention as a member of the Public Audit Committee rather than as its deputy convener. What do the failures of governance at executive or sen...
Gillian Martin SNP
Jamie Greene makes a fair point, which is one of the reasons why we carried out a review of the sponsorship arrangements between the Scottish Government and ...
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Has there been any review of other organisations to see whether there have been other breaches of policies and processes similar to those that we have seen a...
Gillian Martin SNP
As I said, the sponsorship arrangements between the Government and public bodies have been completely reviewed. As part of that, we are ensuring that there a...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
One of the committee’s key recommendations was that a robust whistleblowing policy should be put in place for staff. It is one thing to have a sponsorship te...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
It would be helpful if you could bring your remarks to a close soon, cabinet secretary.
Gillian Martin SNP
Sarah Boyack makes a very good point. One issue that was uncovered was that those in the lower ranks at WICS were afraid to speak out. That was part of a cul...
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
It gives me no pleasure to make this my first speech after recess. I thank the committee for its forensic analysis of what went wrong at WICS. I welcome the...
Gillian Martin SNP
I invite Douglas Lumsden to tell me what was missing in my speech. What more would he like to see from me by way of answering any of the questions in the rep...
Douglas Lumsden Con
The first thing that I would like to hear is an apology to the people of Scotland for all the money that has been wasted. WICS was under the remit of the Sco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Always speak through the chair.
Douglas Lumsden Con
I would like to know whether the Scottish Government is doing a full review of all organisations to see whether such a culture exists in other places. Outsid...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
Made a request to intervene.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is concluding.
Douglas Lumsden Con
That is set against the SNP Government’s never-ending preaching on what it thinks is best for the Scottish public. The cabinet secretary should hang her head...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank the members of the Public Audit Committee for their work, and the clerks to the committee for their support. This is a damning committee report. Th...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
I join members in thanking the Public Audit Committee. I am not a member of the committee, although I sit on the Scottish Commission for Public Audit. The wo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. I advise back benchers seeking to speak in the open debate that I require speeches of up to four minutes. 16:14
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
I begin by thanking my colleagues in the Public Audit Committee, and the committee clerks, whose hard work helped to produce the report. The report is about ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Tim Eagle, who is joining us remotely. 16:18
Tim Eagle (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I apologise for not being able to be present in the chamber for this debate. I intend to keep my remarks brief, as Douglas Lumsden outlined perfectly the man...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I suspect that most of my constituents had never heard of WICS until this scandal erupted. Many more of them are now aware of this important regulator becaus...
Elena Whitham (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) SNP
I, too, thank the committee for its dogged investigation into the matter. Proper spending of public money is of the utmost importance. The principle is not o...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Reform) Reform
Let us be clear: this was a major scandal. We have had some robust meetings, but these were some of the most astonishing meetings that I have ever been invol...
Douglas Lumsden Con
Will the member take an intervention?