Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 11 June 2025
11 Jun 2025 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Apologies, convener—I have quite a long speaking note for this group of amendments.
I will first speak to amendments 44 to 46, which were lodged by Mr Kerr, and amendment 93, which was lodged by Pauline McNeill.
Amendment 44 would not be compatible with the roll-out of the digital evidence sharing capability—DESC—system. Where electronic evidence is stored on DESC, as opposed to on a tape or disc, there will be nothing that can be physically lodged and the list of productions will simply note that the item in question is a digital production. Given that the amendment would require the lodging of a physical item, it would not permit the use of DESC to store digital evidence and share it in court.
Amendment 45 would have the effect of making the use of physical productions the continued default. That would also significantly inhibit the roll-out of DESC and require substantial amounts of court time and resource to be taken up with applications to allow images to be used.
Amendment 46 is unnecessary and would serve no practical purpose. The ability for both the defence and the prosecution to apply for a judicial direction where they consider the image to be insufficient already provides a mechanism to deal with those issues clearly and promptly.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Our next agenda item is stage 2 consideration of the Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill. I ask members to ...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 56, in the name of Sharon Dowey, is grouped with amendment 57.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Together, amendments 56 and 57 seek to clarify that, when someone indicates that they wish to receive a paper copy of a document or does not express a willin...
The Convener
SNP
As no other members wish to come in, I invite the cabinet secretary to speak.
Angela Constance
SNP
I understand Ms Dowey’s intentions, but I cannot support amendments 56 and 57, for several reasons. Prior to the Coronavirus (Scotland) Act 2020, the transm...
Sharon Dowey
Con
Given the cabinet secretary’s comments, I will work on the amendments before stage 3, so I will not press amendment 56. Amendment 56, by agreement, withdraw...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is entitled “Virtual attendance: criteria for when virtual attendance applies”. Amendment 33, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. I thank the cabinet secretary and all her officials for their helpful exchanges, which helped me to understand some of the technicalities in th...
Angela Constance
SNP
The bill provides for virtual attendance in criminal proceedings by making permanent the legislative underpinning that has been in place since 2020. The fram...
The Convener
SNP
I invite Pauline McNeill to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 33.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I am broadly content with what the cabinet secretary has said. I put on record the fact that, when working on my amendments, I had asked for drafting that wo...
The Convener
SNP
Group 3 is on virtual attendance: requirements for attending virtually. Amendment 34, in the name of Pauline McNeill, is grouped with amendments 41 to 43.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Amendments 34 and 42 seek to prescribe whether a location would be deemed a suitable location for remote attendance by specifying that the location must have...
Liam Kerr
Con
My amendments 41 and 43 are both relevant to section 2, which deals with virtual attendance at court. When we look at what section 2 does, we need to ask whe...
Angela Constance
SNP
The requirement for virtual attendance was a clear focus of the committee throughout stage 1. However, it should be acknowledged that forms of virtual attend...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I do not have experience of that—I have only seen instances in which people have given evidence in Victim Support Scotland’s headquarters, which, as I said, ...
Angela Constance
SNP
I understand Ms McNeill’s point, but if I go back to stage 1, the evidence from the Crown Office emphasised that its expectations for vulnerable and non-vuln...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
I wonder whether you can build on that response by saying what engagement the Government has had with the courts on those points between stages 1 and 2.
Angela Constance
SNP
As you would expect, our contact with the court service is on-going, particularly in relation to our understanding in more detail the sorts of operational as...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Yes, please.
Angela Constance
SNP
In every circumstance in which remote evidence is used, it is delivered in a way that is consistent with the solemnity and integrity of court proceedings. As...
The Convener
SNP
I call Pauline McNeill to wind up, and to indicate whether she wishes to press or withdraw amendment 34.
Pauline McNeill
Lab
That was a helpful exchange. I just want to put on record that I hope that my intention here is not misunderstood—I support the use of virtual attendance, an...
Angela Constance
SNP
I put on record two things with regard to what Ms McNeill has said about people giving evidence at home—forgive me if I am repeating myself, convener. I appr...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
Thank you for that clarity. I was not aware that legislation on the matter existed prior to the pandemic, so it is useful to know that. That is fair enough. ...
The Convener
SNP
The next group is on the use of digital productions. Amendment 44, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 1 to 4, 45, 5, 6 and 46 to 49.
Liam Kerr
Con
I will speak to amendment 44 and then to amendments 45 and 46, relating to section 4, which starts on page 8 of the bill. Taken together, those amendments ar...
Angela Constance
SNP
Apologies, convener—I have quite a long speaking note for this group of amendments. I will first speak to amendments 44 to 46, which were lodged by Mr Kerr,...
Liam Kerr
Con
Forgive me, cabinet secretary, as I order my thoughts, but I heard that amendments 44 and 45 would not work because of the progress that is being made on dig...
Angela Constance
SNP
That will be a decision for legislators—that will be for you and me. I am not going to make a blanket determination on that.