Committee
Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee 04 June 2025
04 Jun 2025 · S6 · Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Listed Buildings (Demolition) (PE2105)
Our first continued petition is PE2105, which was lodged by Lydia Franklin on behalf of Save Britain’s Heritage and calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to set a minimum evidence requirement to prevent the unnecessary use of emergency public safety powers to demolish listed buildings.
We last considered the petition at our meeting on 9 October 2024, when we agreed to invite relevant stakeholders to give evidence at a future meeting. I am delighted that the committee will now hear evidence from Hazel Johnson, the director of the Built Environment Forum Scotland, Professor Gordon Masterton, chair of the Institution of Civil Engineers panel for historical engineering works, and Laura Shanks, chair of Local Authority Building Standards Scotland. A warm welcome to you all.
We hope to be joined online by our former committee member and parliamentary colleague, Paul Sweeney MSP, who has taken a particular interest in the proceedings. However, I do not think that we quite have him online as yet.
Professor Masterton would like to say a few words. Feel free, and then we will move to questions, if we may.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Our first continued petition is PE2105, which was lodged by Lydia Franklin on behalf of Save Britain’s Heritage and calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge ...
Professor Gordon Masterton (Institution of Civil Engineers, Panel for Historical Engineering Works)
Thank you, convener. At the outset, I will say that I am representing the Institution of Civil Engineers Scotland region this morning. I am a past president ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you. That was all very enlightening and academic, so let me now be pejorative. You referred to Kenneth Clark’s television series “Civilisation”, which ...
Hazel Johnson (Built Environment Forum Scotland)
There is general support for the principle of having enhanced and accessible guidance, as well as mechanisms that support local authority decision makers to ...
The Convener
Con
Laura, can you go next, as I pointed the finger at local authorities a little bit?
Laura Shanks (Local Authority Building Standards Scotland)
Yes. I wonder whether you could afford me a wee bit of time to go through my opening statement, as it might provide some background.
The Convener
Con
Okay, but we do not have a lot of time. Professor Masterton absorbed some of the time that we had with his lengthy remarks.
Laura Shanks
I will rush through it. This is an important and sensitive area. Local authorities recognise the value of Scotland’s historic buildings and the desire to see...
The Convener
Con
Or have not been undertaken.
Laura Shanks
Yes. Between 2016 and mid-2024, councils across Scotland took emergency action on almost 2,500 occasions and issued more than 1,400 dangerous building notice...
The Convener
Con
How many listed buildings were demolished in Scotland, and what proportion of them were demolished under the dangerous building powers, as opposed to the oth...
Laura Shanks
Only a very few. I would need to get the exact facts and figures—we are still working with our colleagues at the Scottish Government building standards divis...
The Convener
Con
Does that mean that we do not know?
Laura Shanks
It is within that 10 per cent of the 1,400 dangerous buildings, so those buildings are few and far between.
David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
SNP
How many specialist conservation engineers are available to undertake short-notice surveys of potentially dangerous buildings in Scotland? Would requiring lo...
Professor Masterton
There are 10 on the CARE panel in Scotland at the moment, and 100 in the whole of the United Kingdom. The pool could initially go beyond the border in the ea...
David Torrance
SNP
What role should considerations of cost to the public purse and to building owners play in a decision about the future of dangerous listed buildings, in part...
Professor Masterton
Those decisions have to be taken in the round. Cultural and architectural significance is one element to consider, and public safety—as we have heard—is the ...
Hazel Johnson
We support the view that specialist knowledge must feed into the decisions. In some cases, a lack of access to conservation-accredited engineers and speciali...
Laura Shanks
On bringing in specialist engineers, every local authority, regardless of size, has internal processes and procedures that we can go through. Smaller local a...
Maurice Golden (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I think that we all want to avoid the type of situation that we see today, walking down Princes Street, in which a lot of our heritage has been destroyed bec...
Professor Masterton
I think that there are opportunities there. Scotland’s architectural past is full of very interesting buildings and structures that are no longer with us bec...
Maurice Golden
Con
Yes—it is a fantastic space; I enjoyed lecturing there just a few months ago. It is very modern inside.
Professor Masterton
It is.
Maurice Golden
Con
Do any of the other witnesses want to come in? I see that Hazel Johnson wants to come in.
Hazel Johnson
I want to highlight just a few statistics. There are currently upwards of 47,600 listed buildings on the HES register. When the buildings at risk register wa...
Maurice Golden
Con
Perhaps I can ask Laura Shanks to follow on from Hazel Johnson’s point. There is the initial question of early intervention, but, in addition to that, how co...
Laura Shanks
As we have said, building standards is the last line of defence, and the key priority is public safety. There is planning legislation that can provide a way ...
Maurice Golden
Con
We often hear that planning departments in local authorities are struggling with staff recruitment and retention. What is the picture with regard to building...
Laura Shanks
Again, Local Authority Building Standards Scotland, the Scottish Building Standards Hub and the building standards division all work closely together. We hav...