Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 April 2025
24 Apr 2025 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whether a piece of legislation is setting forth principle rather than acting as the means of delivery of a particular policy, and that advantage is that, with that knowledge, the Parliament can design and adjust the way in which it scrutinises the secondary legislation that comes from ministers. That is the fundamental issue with framework legislation. The issue involves the ability, in particular of our Parliament here at Holyrood, to properly scrutinise legislation.
I say to the minister—I hope that he will take this in the spirit that I offer it, because one day he might sit where some of us are currently sitting—that it is in the interests of good government that we get this right. A lot of the things that are produced in this Parliament become unnecessary, unforced errors that would have been caught and corrected if we had a stronger, scrutinising approach to secondary legislation.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17074, in the name of Stuart McMillan, on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, on its...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the work of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry into framework legislation and Henry VIII po...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I compliment the committee on its report. Does Stuart McMillan agree that having a definition of framework legislation, however flawed it might be, is very v...
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Yes, I do. The fact that we managed to arrive at some kind of definition is an indication of that. We recognised how challenging it is to arrive at a definit...
Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
This might be an unfair question to ask Stuart McMillan, but he said that the Scottish Parliament is no different as regards members’ experiences of dealing ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I can give you back the time for the interventions, Mr McMillan.
Stuart McMillan
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today, I am speaking on behalf of the committee. I said earlier that we wanted to depoliticise elements of the issue that we a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we have quite a bit of time in hand, so members can assume that generosity will be baked into the speak...
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate on the DPLR Committee’s recent report on framework legislation and its impact on parliamentary bu...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)
SNP
I was very interested to hear the definition that the member just gave. Indeed, it probably concurs with the definition that the FPA Committee would have giv...
Finlay Carson
Con
In this session, we have found that, in some cases, how guidance or good practice guidelines are set out in secondary legislation is crucial, but often those...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Jamie Hepburn)
SNP
I am grateful to have the opportunity to respond to the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. I welcome the remarks of the conveners of both the Deleg...
Michelle Thomson
SNP
In some respects, the gentle challenge is, does it really matter? Many of the considerations that we are covering off today are about the efficiency and effe...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I will come to process, because the point that Michelle Thomson makes speaks to the point that this is about our processes and how things are scrutinised in ...
Finlay Carson
Con
I appreciate the anger that stakeholders have that we do not have time in our parliamentary calendar to look at the good food nation plan laid before the Par...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Mr Carson mentioned earlier that he had written to me. I have responded to that letter, but I do not know whether he has seen my response yet. To be fair, it...
Stephen Kerr
Con
I understand what the minister is saying. He speaks in the debate as a minister of the Scottish Government, which I respect, but I am sure that, as a parliam...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Of course, I may have a perspective on those matters, but I think that it is important to acknowledge that I stand in the chamber as a Scottish Government mi...
Martin Whitfield
Lab
The benefit of having a definition is that it would allow there to be much greater agreement before a piece of legislation was presented that it would follow...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I will be candid: I am not entirely convinced of that. I appreciate the committee’s report, but, with the best will in the world, it has not crystallised how...
Stephen Kerr
Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
The Presiding Officer said that we had a lot of leeway. I have extended quite a lot of it and I have still not got through the committee’s report. I am more ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
We have not exhausted the generosity, but we are getting closer to it.
Stephen Kerr
Con
I am grateful, Presiding Officer, and I thank the minister for giving way. There is a clear advantage to knowing whether a bill is a framework bill, and whet...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
First, I assure Mr Kerr that I have no intention of sitting where he is at any time. I think that he makes the point that I am trying to make. Are we going t...
Stephen Kerr
Con
That is what happens. The advantage—
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Mr Kerr suggests that that is the case, but I am less convinced that that is a sensible way forward, because there will be plenty of important matters that w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
You are redefining the meaning of generosity.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
You have been very generous, Presiding Officer. In relation to Henry VIII powers, the committee says that the Scottish Government should “consider what mor...
Roz McCall (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I am delighted to open this committee debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives and to note the report that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committe...