Committee
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee 29 October 2024
29 Oct 2024 · S6 · Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Local Services Franchises (Traffic Commissioner Notices and Panels) (Scotland) Regulations 2024 (SSI 2024/229)
We will have a memorandum of understanding, and the guidance is under development. I suspect that somebody will ask whether franchising could go ahead whether or not the regulations are annulled. It could, and the traffic commissioner would still establish a panel but, without the regulations, there would be no conversation with officials or the Scottish Government about what the panel would look like, what its make-up would be or what its parameters were. The guidance that is under development will be part of the legislation, which will allow us to have full input into what the commissioner will do when they set up a panel. My understanding is that, in 2019, we wanted to ensure that there was no political interference in something that is so big and so important and that it would be done independently. The process has to be gone through. It is not that simple to cut the corners. We can put it into the memorandum of understanding that the guidance that is under development will provide the parameters that the traffic commissioner will work to. If the regulations were annulled and if we continued with franchising, the traffic commissioner would make the decisions and we would have no input whatsoever. 09:15
In the same item of business
The Convener (Edward Mountain)
Con
Good morning, and welcome to the 31st meeting in 2024 of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. The first agenda item for consideration is evidence on...
The Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity (Jim Fairlie)
SNP
Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to discuss the regulations. As we know, franchising is an important tool for local transport authorities to improve s...
The Convener
Con
When I was welcoming people to the committee, I should also have welcomed Graham Simpson, who has joined us today. He will get to ask questions at the end of...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
I was not even sitting in the Parliament in 2019, so I cannot answer for the decision-making process at the time, but I trust the parliamentary procedure, an...
The Convener
Con
There were a lot of amendments to the 2019 act—I seem to remember sitting in the committee and dealing with more than 100 amendments on the workplace parking...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
We would not be minded to change just this provision. We would have to change the act, which would take us beyond 2026.
The Convener
Con
Why would you have to change the whole act, if this is just a part of it?
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Because it is set in primary legislation. It is part of the 2019 act, so we would have to go back to the beginning and start again.
The Convener
Con
Can you not change a section of an act through primary legislation? It looks as if Bridget Bryden wants to help me out—I might have got this confused.
Bridget Bryden (Scottish Government)
It would be possible to make such a change, but we would have to look at the whole Scottish franchising model. The provision has been built in as a safeguard...
The Convener
Con
Committee members have a lot of questions. I will bring in Mark Ruskell first, to be followed by Douglas Lumsden and Monica Lennon.
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Green
Good morning. Minister, will you explain why a franchising scheme that is approved by a panel is less likely to be subject to legal challenge than one that i...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Such a scheme could still be challenged legally but, if it has gone through a panel, that panel will have looked at the requirement for a franchise to be est...
Mark Ruskell
Green
In relation to the risk, you will understand that there is concern about the panel model, and there is not good evidence that that kind of system has worked ...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Under that approach, a scheme is robustly scrutinised by an independent body that has no political input and is separate from the organisations and the autho...
Mark Ruskell
Green
Is there evidence that panels reduce the risk?
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Clearly, this is the first one that we have done, so we do not have evidence. As I said, a scheme could still be legally challenged, but this is a safeguard ...
Mark Ruskell
Green
You said that we are where we are with the legislation, but 2019 was some time ago, and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge with progress on bus franc...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Would I personally do that? I would not answer that question right now; I would go back and have a much broader look at everything right back to 2019. I have...
Mark Ruskell
Green
My final question is about the guidance that could come on the back of this Scottish statutory instrument. You understand the concerns that have been raised ...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
We will have a memorandum of understanding, and the guidance is under development. I suspect that somebody will ask whether franchising could go ahead whethe...
The Convener
Con
Douglas Lumsden has some questions.
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I will pick up on that point first. Minister, you seem to be saying that, if the instrument is annulled, the panels will continue anyway.
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Yes—that is in primary legislation.
Douglas Lumsden
Con
If the instrument was annulled, what would the Government’s response be? What would its next step be?
Jim Fairlie
SNP
If the regulations are to be annulled, I assure you that the rest of my day will be scrapped—let me put it that way. We will go away and have a long and deta...
Douglas Lumsden
Con
You say that that could happen. Would it happen, or would there be changes? I am slightly confused because such a system was tried in England, but it did not...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
The process that you talk about being used down south is the Nexus process, which was different from this one. That looked at financial aspects; we are looki...
Douglas Lumsden
Con
Yes, but after speaking to your neighbours, you would think that you would learn some lessons. From your evidence at question 6, it seems that the Government...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
We could revisit the act if people wanted us to do that, but we would have to forget about franchising between now and 2026, because we would have to go back...