Committee
Education, Children and Young People Committee 31 January 2024
31 Jan 2024 · S6 · Education, Children and Young People Committee
Item of business
Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendment 191 is a simple one-line amendment that effectively removes a section for which the Government, in its own amendments, is proposing a different section. I will come to that in a moment. The reason behind amendment 191 follows on from general comment 24 made by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child: “there should be lifelong protection from publication regarding crimes committed by children. The rationale for the non-publication rule, and for its continuation after the child reaches the age of 18, is that publication causes ongoing stigmatization, which is likely to have a negative impact on access to education, work, housing or safety. This impedes the child’s reintegration and assumption of a constructive role in society. States parties should thus ensure that the general rule is lifelong privacy protection pertaining to all types of media, including social media.” I can really go no further than that in respect of amendment 191, but I would like to take the opportunity to explore the Government’s invitation not to move amendment 191 because of amendment 42 and its proposed new section 106BA of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016. I have a number of questions for the minister and, if her answers satisfy me, they will lead me to not move amendment 191. The first question is in relation to proposed new section 106BA(2), regarding the sheriff making an order “on the application of a person other than the child who wishes to publish information relating to the child”. Does the Government envisage any boundaries with regard to who that person might be? Proposed new section 106BA(3) is possibly the start of the most crucial section in my questions. The power rests with the sheriff, and it gives persons an opportunity to make representation—a representation is more than a simple application—and those persons are: “(i) the person who made the application, (ii) the child to whom the information relates, (iii) any other person the sheriff considers to have an interest in the application.” Given that the public interest test and the best interest test overlie the environment in which the sheriff has to make the decision, are you looking at an objective or a subjective assessment by the sheriff that would need to be justified? Also, proposed new section 106BA(4) makes reference to “conditions” and 106BA(4)(a)(ii) uses the phrase “appreciates what the effect of making such an order would be”. Again, I inquire as to the extent to which the sheriff has the power to investigate and what resources will be made available to the sheriff to investigate the young person’s level of appreciation. Is the Government expecting the current tests of the ability of a child to make a decision to be used in relation to the phrase “appreciates”, or, under the best interest test, does it extend to looking for objective evidence that the young person appreciates the effect of the order? The minister rightly pointed out the growing media landscape and the fact that once things are out, they are out, and getting them back in is impossible in reality. The minister also spoke about the international effect of the current media baseload that we have. Will the minister confirm that, in relation to the Government’s amendments, full consideration has been given to the fact that so many of those cases will revolve around families, very small communities and extended families? She has spoken at length about the protections, but I ask her to put on record that that has been fully considered, subject to the further amendments that I understand may come at stage 3 with regard to some of the other amendments that we have. I also put on record that it is very difficult to rest on the basis that we are relying on the court to make a decision and that some of the Government’s amendments would allow people the opportunity to go to court—in particular, the amendments to remove any ministerial or governmental role in decision making—but that other amendments say that there will be a financial cost for doing so. Some of the people whom I envisage seeking an order or to have an order overturned or amended will be those who find themselves in very precarious financial positions; therefore, they might not have open to them the avenue that the Government proposes as a way out of those problems. I will leave it at that, convener.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Sue Webber)
Con
Good morning, and welcome to the fourth meeting in 2024 of the Education, Children and Young People Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is day 2...
The Convener
Con
Group 12 is on reporting restrictions and self-identification. Amendment 20, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 24 and 48 to 50.
The Minister for Children, Young People and Keeping the Promise (Natalie Don)
SNP
Good morning, everyone. Sections 12 and 13 of the bill as introduced place restrictions on the reporting of certain information that could identify a person...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. I welcome the amendments, especially amendments 24 and 48, which address matters that were discussed during the stage 1 process and in the comm...
Natalie Don
SNP
I thank Mr Macpherson for that contribution. I do not believe that I have had sight of that submission as yet, but I will certainly look at that ahead of sta...
The Convener
Con
Group 13 is on reporting restrictions, powers and the public interest test. Amendment 21, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 191, 30 to ...
Natalie Don
SNP
The group contains a large number of amendments that cover a wide range of important areas. Some of the amendments are quite technical, so I require to speak...
Martin Whitfield (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention in relation to this section?
Natalie Don
SNP
This is quite a lengthy group of amendments. I will take the intervention, but I may respond in relation to all the amendments in the group.
The Convener
Con
Mr Whitfield, you are speaking next to this group of amendments, so perhaps you can make your comments then. I am trying to keep a bit of pace going.
Martin Whitfield
Lab
That is fine.
Natalie Don
SNP
Amendments 32 and 41 make changes to new section 106B of the 2016 act in consequence of new section 106BA, so that section 106B will now apply only to dispen...
The Convener
Con
Thank you, minister. There is, indeed, a lot in this grouping. I call Martin Whitfield to speak to amendment 191 and the other amendments in the group.
Martin Whitfield
Lab
Amendment 191 is a simple one-line amendment that effectively removes a section for which the Government, in its own amendments, is proposing a different sec...
The Convener
Con
Minister, perhaps you can address those points when you are winding up.
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
SNP
I will make more substantive remarks in the later group, with your permission, convener. At the moment, I will say that the focus of the bill is children and...
The Convener
Con
I invite the minister to wind up.
Natalie Don
SNP
I will try to get through all Mr. Whitfield’s points. In relation to his first point about allowing people to apply for the order, as I outlined in my openin...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 21 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 9, Against 0, Abstentions 1. Amendment 21 agreed to.
The Convener
Con
The next group is on “Reporting restrictions: time restrictions take effect”. Amendment 22, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 46.
Natalie Don
SNP
Amendments 22 and 46 will mean that reporting restrictions will apply from the point that a child aged under 18 becomes a victim of, or a witness to, a suspe...
The Convener
Con
The next group is on “Reporting restrictions: deceased victims”. Amendment 124, in the name of Ruth Maguire, is grouped with amendments 126, 125, 127 to 136,...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
I will lay out what my amendments intend to do. They can be grouped into four main categories. They intend to extend the reporting restrictions that the bill...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)
SNP
We appreciate that the round table is an important part of the discussion. Would you look for equitability of representation of victims as well as the accuse...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
That is a hugely important point. The committee heard from an academic who gave very helpful and specific reasons with regard to the challenges. There was...
Natalie Don
SNP
I will begin, as I did in group 13, by reiterating that I absolutely recognise the intention behind the amendments in this group, which is to reduce the trau...
Michelle Thomson
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Natalie Don
SNP
Yes.