Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 24 April 2024
24 Apr 2024 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Margaret Gribbon
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I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tried to raise a grievance and was trying to tick all the boxes. I do not know whether you recall the case, but it involved her sergeant sending a silly sexist email saying, basically, “If there are enough male firearms officers on duty, I don’t want to see two female firearms officers out on their own.” It was clearly a blatantly discriminatory email, even though, for years, Police Scotland denied that it was, until, on day 1 of the tribunal, everybody accepted that it was demonstrably a textbook example of an ill-judged and sexist email. Rhona had complained about that email and believed that the officer who was dealing with her complaint had just dismissed it and was not taking it seriously. She then tried to raise a grievance about the mishandling of her complaint in relation to the email. It was clearly a grievance, but people and development—that is, human resources—said that it was not a grievance. It clearly was a grievance; the tribunal found that it was a grievance. 10:15 Rhona Malone then tried to raise the issue with the professional standards department. It tried to dissuade her, because, at that point in time, she had her tribunal lodged. The department said, “Why don’t we deal with it as part of your tribunal mediation?”. However, it had nothing to do with the tribunal, so she was resolute in making it quite clear to the department that she wanted it to investigate the matter. The department confirmed to her in writing that it would investigate, but absolutely nothing was done about that. The professional standards department is supposed to log all complaints on its Centurion database and then an investigation would follow. In Rhona Malone’s litigation, the highest-ranking officer who gave evidence on behalf of Police Scotland—you might recall she had multiple victimisation claims, which the employment tribunal upheld—was the then head of the PSD. He was a chief superintendent. He was called on to explain why, having stated in clear and unequivocal terms in an email to the officer that the PSD would investigate, it was not even recorded on the database and there was no investigation. The tribunal found that the explanations for the failure to investigate by the PSD and by that chief superintendent were implausible. In evidence, he said, “Oh, you know, I get a lot of emails”. Well, don’t we all? He said, “I get a lot of emails and I dropped the ball”. Given my history with the Rhona Malone case and the other cases that I act in, I would say that there was never an intention to pick up the ball. Again, I really cannot explain the psyche. I think that I saw in one of the reports—it was perhaps the Angiolini review—that Police Scotland is quite relaxed about holding its hands up and saying, “Yeah, we’re completely incompetent, but we don’t discriminate”. However, it does discriminate, and this is a classic example. None of this is rocket science, so the situation is inexplicable. In such cases, it actually takes more energy and time not to deal with it properly than it does even to try to circumvent and dodge the issue. That creates problems for the officer, but it also raises a question about the integrity of policing. There are potential cost ramifications for the public purse when such cases end up in an employment tribunal.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2024 of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have received no apologies. Today, we continue taking evidence on...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I should declare an interest, as I have spoken to both witnesses in the past, in my previous job as a journalist, and I think that I have also, as an MSP, sp...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I welcome Margaret Gribbon to the meeting; Margaret is attending online. Thank you very much for taking the time to attend our meeting this morni...
Margaret Gribbon
Good morning. First, I extend my thanks to the committee for giving me the opportunity to share the experiences of my police officer clients in relation to p...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Are you able to expand a bit on that?
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. In addition to my experience in acting for police officers, last year, there was a batch of independent investigations: His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, Margaret. There is a lot in there, but it was very interesting to hear that overview. A lot of things were going through my head when you were set...
Margaret Gribbon
That is absolutely the case. We talk about “culture”, but what does that mean? It is a vague, elusive term. To bring it alive for you, I can give you some ex...
The Convener
SNP
I will just interrupt you there. You have set out the issue that we are considering very well, but, in the interest of time, I would like to allow members to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. Hopefully we will talk about this in a bit more detail in relation to sections 5 and 8 of the bill, but you will know that PSD has responsibility in rel...
The Convener
SNP
That is helpful, thank you.
Sharon Dowey (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Earlier, you said that the police were less prepared to investigate complaints involving discrimination. Is there an issue because they do not ...
Margaret Gribbon
I think that the mentality is that they just do not want to investigate the complaints. I will give you an example from the case of Rhona Malone. She had tri...
Sharon Dowey
Con
One of the comments in your evidence, in reference to the Rhona Malone case, was that Police Scotland obstructed every phase of the liability litigation. Wil...
The Convener
SNP
Margaret, before you answer that, can I encourage you to focus some of your answers on the provisions of the bill? I know that it is often hard for people to...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes. I would like to address the committee on the sections that I have looked at more closely, which are sections 5, 8 and 13. To answer the question, I do...
Sharon Dowey
Con
You have mentioned a few litigation cases that you have dealt with. Could litigation be avoided if the complaints handling system were completely reformed? D...
Margaret Gribbon
Undoubtedly. If complaints were independently assessed, that would have a significant impact on the number of cases going to employment tribunal, or just on ...
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Ms Gribbon. I am interested in your point about the necessity for independence in the complaints handling process. I understand that there are ...
Margaret Gribbon
I have very limited experience of the PIRC, because the officers whom I have acted for have not been deemed to be members of the public for the purposes of t...
John Swinney
SNP
Is it your point that the bill that we have in front of us does not get close to affecting a real source of difficulty, which is the effectiveness of the pro...
Margaret Gribbon
Yes, that is correct. The PSD deals with everything for ACC and below. Before I dealt with any of these cases, if you had asked me what the most important ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you. My final question follows up on your earlier point about the importance of independence in the process. You said a moment ago that you do not have...
Margaret Gribbon
Ideally, we would have something that is further removed. I have heard the evidence from some of the previous committee witnesses about their perceptions of ...
John Swinney
SNP
Thank you very much.
The Convener
SNP
I will bring in Russell Findlay.
Russell Findlay
Con
Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Gribbon
Hi.
Russell Findlay
Con
You have described the weaponisation of the complaints process against officers. For people who do not know, that could quite often be summarised as turning ...
Margaret Gribbon
Unfortunately not, no. You have—