Committee
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee 27 February 2024
27 Feb 2024 · S6 · Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Item of business
Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you, convener—it is just to declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
The next item on our agenda is a presentation from Emily Ottley, who undertook commissioned research for the committee on an international comparison of abor...
Dr Emily Ottley (University of Winchester)
Lovely. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Emily Ottley. I am a lecturer in law at the University of Winchester. As you just explained, I was asked to under...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much, Emily.
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)
Green
On that final point about how recently most of those measures have been implemented and the lack of evidence about impact, is there even any anecdotal indica...
Dr Ottley
Yes, definitely. In particular, anecdotal evidence from service providers and clinic users is generally very positive, even when a presence of protesters has...
Sandesh Gulhane (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Thanks for the presentation. I have a couple of questions. The first revolves around what has been said about a slippery slope argument in other jurisdiction...
Dr Ottley
I have not seen the phrase “slippery slope” used in any of the reports that I have read, but people are concerned about the fact that legislation often targe...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The other question, which has come up in other places, revolves around silent prayer. It is sometimes impossible to know whether people are protesting—someti...
Dr Ottley
That is a good question. Whether silent prayer is included in the prohibited activities varies depending on the jurisdiction. In one jurisdiction, the point ...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Yes. Could you expand on the point about what difference it makes if safe access zones are included in protest legislation rather than in other legislation? ...
Dr Ottley
Different people see it in different ways, but there might be a perception, which seems to come across in some of the Hansard reports, that “anti-abortion” p...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
My question follows on from Sandesh Gulhane’s question about silent prayer. Does the other legislation look at the number of people standing outside a clinic...
Dr Ottley
None of the legislation that I have looked at says that a certain number of people is or is not okay. The legislation is generally quite broad in what is pro...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
This has been really useful. I am interested in what you said about some of the legislation that you have looked at listing prohibited behaviour. The sense w...
Dr Ottley
Some of the parliamentary debates show some concern about how to characterise a particular behaviour. Some of the legal challenges regarding human rights com...
Emma Harper
SNP
My next question is on a different subject—the rights of protesters versus those of women who are seeking an abortion. Our briefing papers say that the Unite...
Dr Ottley
To go back to the UK Supreme Court judgment in the Northern Ireland case, the court explicitly said that it was prioritising the rights of women who were acc...
Ivan McKee (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you for your interesting research on the issue. I have a couple of questions about impact. You mentioned a couple of legal cases that have been unsucce...
Dr Ottley
On successful challenges, in the US, an earlier version of the Massachusetts law made it an offence to knowingly enter or remain within 35 feet—about 11m—of ...
Ivan McKee
SNP
That is fine. I suppose that it is too early to say how such charges progress, if and when they are brought, with regard to giving some clarity on what behav...
Dr Ottley
Perhaps I did not explain that super well. The Public Order Act 2023, which applies to England and Wales, has been in the news as a controversial piece of le...
Ivan McKee
SNP
No—that is fine. If I understand it correctly, that legislation makes a clear distinction between other protests and abortion zone provisions. Is that correct?
Dr Ottley
Yes. Section 9 of the 2023 act is singled out as relating to abortion safe access zones.
The Convener
SNP
Sandesh Gulhane wants to come in.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Thank you, convener—it is just to declare an interest as a practising national health service general practitioner.
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Ross Greer wants to come in.
Ross Greer
Green
I will be brief. Dr Ottley, I am interested to know how, in any of the examples that you came across, the legislation, ordinance or whatever it was engaged w...
Dr Ottley
Not as far as I am aware. I recall reading about behaviour that could happen in situations in which there were churches in a zone—for example, about whether ...
Ross Greer
Green
I am talking about the impact on behaviour, such as in the example that you gave. A church can put a sign outside, just as somebody could put a sign in their...
Dr Ottley
Yes—for sure. That is connected to the size of the zones. Some people who do not agree with safe access zone legislation but might prefer a case-by-case PSPO...