Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 06 December 2023
06 Dec 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Framework Review
No. I am talking very specifically about the four principles. The difficulty, which has been identified by independent analysis—not by politicians—is whether it is possible to go along with all those four principles at the same time, and the Finance and Public Administration Committee has to review that.
That raises the issue, which the cabinet secretary referred to, of the block grant adjustment methodology, because that matters, too. If we get a glazed look when we mention the fiscal framework, we get a sense of unintelligibility when it comes to talking about BGAs, but they also matter. That is the dilemma at the heart of any fiscal framework negotiation. How do you measure the change in equivalent UK spending and revenues in terms of adjustments that need to be made for different fiscal and demographic structures in Scotland?
Do I have nine minutes, Presiding Officer?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Annabelle Ewing)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-11546, in the name of Shona Robison, on the fiscal framework review. I ask members who wish to speak in t...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance (Shona Robison)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the revised fiscal framework agreement. On 2 August, following a joint review, the Scottish Government and the United Ki...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
In light of the point that the cabinet secretary has just made, does she believe that there is a case for looking again at the principles of the Smith commis...
Shona Robison
SNP
I am open to having that discussion. When Liz Smith made that point at committee, I said that a lot of time has elapsed and a lot of changes have been made. ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Before I speak to our amendment, I apologise on behalf of my colleague Murdo Fraser, who is indisposed this afternoon, having fallen on the ice this morning....
John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)
SNP
Could Liz Smith develop the argument about whether the revised fiscal framework adequately provides for the scale of financial shocks that we are experiencin...
Liz Smith
Con
Mr Swinney is making a constitutional point, and we disagree on these constitutional arrangements. The question of exogenous shocks relates not just to the c...
John Swinney
SNP
I am not making a constitutional point. I am making a point about the substance of the autumn statement, because that fuels, in general, the size of the publ...
Liz Smith
Con
Mr Swinney made exactly those points when he was finance secretary. He is not just talking about the current autumn statement. Mr Swinney would have been mak...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
SNP
Is Liz Smith suggesting that paragraph 18 of the Smith commission report should also be up for review?
Liz Smith
Con
No. I am talking very specifically about the four principles. The difficulty, which has been identified by independent analysis—not by politicians—is whether...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Yes. I can perhaps give you another minute and a half, in the light of the generosity in your taking of interventions, but no longer than that.
Liz Smith
Con
We owe the officials in the Scottish and UK Governments our praise and congratulations for the way that they went about the renegotiation. They worked extrao...
Michael Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I add my and Scottish Labour’s thanks to those given by Liz Smith to the officials and experts who were involved in what is a complex piece of work that has ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Michael Marra
Lab
Not at the moment. I am just beginning, sir. Nowhere is that more apparent, I am afraid to say, than in the Government’s reality-denying post-truth response...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Michael Marra
Lab
No, sir. Faced with a budget black hole, we have a finance secretary who has embraced the Treasury on the limited borrowing powers that she describes, despe...
John Mason
SNP
I thank the member for giving way. Will he commit the Labour Party to renegotiating the fiscal framework if Labour wins the next election?
Michael Marra
Lab
We are all committed to continual development of the fiscal framework. There will be reviews in future parliamentary terms. I anticipate that the settlement ...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the member give way?
Michael Marra
Lab
No, thank you. Not on that point. The hasty agreement that was struck by the finance secretary was, frankly, one of a Government that is rushing from one cr...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Michael Marra
Lab
No, thank you, sir. Professor David Bell, who is one of the three authors of the independent report, told the Finance and Public Administration Committee on...
Michelle Thomson (Falkirk East) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way on that point?
Michael Marra
Lab
No, thank you. The updated fiscal framework gives Scotland more borrowing powers. In the Parliament, the SNP frequently claims that it is powerless to deal ...
Shona Robison
SNP
Given that litany of accusations, I wonder what Michael Marra would say to his Welsh Labour Government colleagues, who are facing exactly the same challenges...
Michael Marra
Lab
I have no doubt that there are significant problems with the autumn statement, the situation that the Tory Government has left this country in, the state tha...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
LD
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. The fiscal framework is, of course, key to the pooling and sharing of resources across our islands...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I call Ash Regan to speak to and to move amendment S6M-11546.1, for up to six minutes. 15:27