Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 04 October 2023
04 Oct 2023 · S6 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Two-child Benefit Cap
We meet this afternoon in the middle of challenge poverty week, and, as I have said before in the chamber, there are few issues as important as tackling poverty. It should be the focus of far more of our time in this place, particularly in terms of how we use the powers of this Parliament to take action.
The Government has chosen to bring a very limited debate today on a very pernicious part of the universal credit system, which it is entitled to do. However, given that it is challenge poverty week, and given the scope of that week, the Government could have used its time to have a much wider debate about all the roots and facets of poverty and about how we use our collective energies far more in tackling it. The Government has chosen not to do that, so perhaps it is more interested in the political context in which we meet today than in—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Liam McArthur)
LD
The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-10716, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on reversal of the United Kingdom Government’s two-child b...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate and to call unequivocally on the UK Government to end the harmful and discriminatory two-child limit and the abhorrent rape c...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Can the cabinet secretary explain to the chamber why, in April 2019, she said to The Times: “It’s not our policy to alleviate the two-child cap”? Indeed, s...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
There is the irony—I have to mitigate not only what the Tories are doing, but the Labour Party, too. What a sad indictment of where Scottish Labour is now. I...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary’s policy calls on the UK Government to find £300 million. Where does she suggest that UK ministers find that money?
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I assure Miles Briggs that I am coming to that. I have a suggested solution, and I am sure that we will hear many more during today’s debate. That money doe...
Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am interested to know what discussions you have had with the First Minister about the U-turns around school meals. Could you discuss with us how often you ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I ask members to speak through the chair. I call the cabinet secretary.
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Indeed, if there had been a U-turn I would have discussed it, but there has been none and therefore no need to have that conversation. It is clear, more t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
LD
I can advise the chamber that there is a bit of time in hand, so there should be time to recompense members who take interventions. That is all the more reas...
Miles Briggs (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I am always pleased to be able to debate welfare in the Parliament, and I welcome the fact that the Government has brought forward the debate. However, perha...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs
Con
No. Can I make some progress? I will be happy to take the member’s intervention later. It is hard to think of any UK Government in recent history, except pe...
Kate Forbes
SNP
The member has talked a lot about duty, and I thought that I would make my question more topical. His Prime Minister has today talked about the importance of...
Miles Briggs
Con
That is not the case. As the member clearly knows, the policy is about fairness for working families as well—all families having to take difficult decisions....
Carol Mochan
Lab
Can the member tell me whether he and his colleagues accept that the Westminster Conservative Government’s approach to benefits means that many families find...
Miles Briggs
Con
I am always in favour of the DWP and Social Security Scotland having discussions about how we simplify access to benefits. That is something that both depart...
The Minister for Equalities, Migration and Refugees (Emma Roddick)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs
Con
I would like to make some progress; I have only a few minutes left. I will see if I have time to let the member in later on. Recent SNP-Green cuts to, for e...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I have very much enjoyed the member’s speech on childcare and employability, but I wonder whether we could get back to the point of the motion. Can he tell t...
Miles Briggs
Con
As I have said, these are difficult decisions, and Governments have had to take them. The cabinet secretary has also got to think about that. However, the fa...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Miles Briggs
Con
No. I am coming to a conclusion. The Scottish Government has the ability to top up reserved benefits if it wishes, and we, as a Parliament, have the opportu...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
We meet this afternoon in the middle of challenge poverty week, and, as I have said before in the chamber, there are few issues as important as tackling pove...
Kate Forbes
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I will in a moment. Perhaps we are meeting in that context rather than for the wide-ranging, constructive debate that we could be having about challenging p...
Kate Forbes
SNP
The member rightly talks about poverty being quite a wide issue. Peter Kelly, of the Poverty Alliance, has described the benefit cap as “the worst of the” ...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I am coming on to speak about why universal credit does not work and why it needs to be fundamentally reformed. We need to see wide-ranging change, because i...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
SNP
I am interested in the Labour amendment, which talks about the “New Deal for Working People”, There are a lot of reasonable things that I absolutely agree ...
Paul O’Kane
Lab
I thank Mr Doris for his supportive comments on the new deal for working people. I hope that he might convince members on the front bench to back our amendme...