Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 22 February 2023
22 Feb 2023 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Transgender Prisoners and Scottish Prisons
I echo what the cabinet secretary said: we are not suggesting that trans women inherently pose some kind of threat. The issue has always been about predatory men exploiting gender self-identification. Indeed, that is why we are here to talk about this particular case. A victim of this male-bodied double rapist—and his wife—has said that his claim to be trans is a “sham”. Cabinet secretary, you told the BBC that, in this case, you need to accept that people identify as women. Nicola Sturgeon has repeatedly been unable to answer this particular question in relation to this individual. Kate Forbes has said: “No rapist can be a woman. Isla Bryson is a man”. Who is right?
In the same item of business
The Convener (Audrey Nicoll)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the sixth meeting in 2023 of the Criminal Justice Committee. There are no apologies this morning. Our first item of business is ...
Teresa Medhurst (Scottish Prison Service)
Good morning, convener and committee members. Excuse me—I have a bit of a cold, so I will try to work through that as we go through the session. Thank you f...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown)
SNP
Thank you for the opportunity to be here today to answer questions regarding the management of transgender prisoners and the recommendations of the urgent ca...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much. We will now move to questions. I intend to allow 45 minutes for members to ask questions.
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I echo what the cabinet secretary said: we are not suggesting that trans women inherently pose some kind of threat. The issue has always been about predatory...
Keith Brown
I am not here to discuss other people’s views. I am here as the Cabinet Secretary for Justice to answer questions about the Prison Service’s policy. I would ...
Russell Findlay
Con
But if this goes to the heart of—
Keith Brown
SNP
Let me finish my point. You have asked a question.
Russell Findlay
Con
We have very little time.
Keith Brown
SNP
If you have other questions, you can ask them after I have finished my answer, please.
Russell Findlay
Con
Okay. Given the amount of time that we have, I do not want to—
The Convener
SNP
We are here to discuss the specifics of the lessons learned review. I would be grateful if you could refine your questions to focus on the review.
Russell Findlay
Con
Okay. The reason why I think that my question is relevant is that it goes to the heart of where we are now. The Prison Service is conducting a review. If sen...
Keith Brown
SNP
I was trying to answer, but you would not allow me to answer. That was the point that I was trying to make. Can I try to answer now?
Russell Findlay
Con
Okay. Who is right in terms of definition?
The Convener
SNP
You are asking the same question. I ask you to ask another question.
Keith Brown
SNP
Convener, I am happy to answer the question, but I would like to try to get through my answer before being interrupted, if possible. As justice secretary, m...
Russell Findlay
Con
When did you find out that this particular prisoner had been sent to a women’s prison?
Keith Brown
SNP
I found out when it became evident from the media. I am not normally uniformly told of every prisoner who is sent to prison.
Russell Findlay
Con
Even though this was quite a high-profile and on-going High Court case, and people were aware of the issue, nobody had informed you.
Keith Brown
SNP
I have just answered that question.
Russell Findlay
Con
Once the transfer became known about, you initially defended the decision. The following day, the First Minister announced that the prisoner was being remove...
Keith Brown
SNP
At the time, I said to the Parliament that I had faith in the basis on which the Scottish Prison Service deals with prisoners who are transgender. It has an ...
Russell Findlay
Con
On 31 January, you told the Parliament that “The SPS was, of course, aware of ministers’ views—it would be, frankly, bizarre if the SPS had not been aware o...
Keith Brown
SNP
As you have mentioned, there was a substantial degree of publicity around that. Obviously, ministers have discussions with officials and the agencies for whi...
Russell Findlay
Con
How were the Government’s views made known to the Prison Service?
Keith Brown
I have just explained that, convener.
The Convener
SNP
Perhaps I can—
Russell Findlay
Con
I am not entirely sure that we know how the Government communicated to the Prison Service its dissatisfaction with that prisoner being in the female estate. ...
Teresa Medhurst
During a conversation with officials, I was asked about where we were in the case management of that individual, because the case management process applies ...