Committee
Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee 07 December 2022
07 Dec 2022 · S6 · Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee
Item of business
Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I will speak to Liam Kerr’s amendment 131. I understand that the thinking behind the amendment is to avoid criminalising people who are genuinely walking their dogs and have lost control of them. However, as drafted, the amendment would make conviction for genuine offences even more difficult. The Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals says that the amendment would create an obvious loophole, because every poacher could claim that their poaching was not the intended use of the dog. The end of section 1 already makes clear what is required regarding the control of dogs. Rather than create clarity, amendment 131 would give offenders yet another excuse that they could hide behind. Even the Law Society of Scotland acknowledged in oral evidence in June 2022 that that can be used as a loophole. Police Scotland explained in written evidence that hare coursers will often claim that they let their dog off the leash for exercise or to go to the toilet and that it chased a hare of its own free will. We cannot afford to open another loophole, or the bill will soon consist of more loopholes than legislation, when it is attempting to close down loopholes from 2022. I urge members to vote against amendment 131. Edward Mountain’s amendments in the group, which propose the removal of protection for rabbits, weasels, stoats, mink, polecats and ferrets, would make it permissible to hunt those creatures with dogs. During stage 1 evidence, we heard from Chief Superintendent Flynn that the suffering of all animals that are attacked by a dog will be the same. They are sentient beings, so they will suffer. All animals deserve our respect and humane control methods. I cannot support the amendments. Rabbits are specifically covered by amendments 58 to 62. The committee has considered the matter at length and I am satisfied with the evidence. We have heard that rabbits should be defined as wild mammals in the legislation in order to prevent the creation of a loophole for hare coursing and for the welfare reasons that I have just outlined.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Finlay Carson)
Con
Good morning, everyone. Our single item of business today is consideration of the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome the Minister for En...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 131, in the name of Liam Kerr, is grouped with amendments 58, 63 to 68, 59, 60, 110, 61 and 62. I invite Liam Kerr to speak to and move amendment 1...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, committee. I am very grateful to you for your consideration of amendment 131. I will explain the thinking that underlies it. Section 1 seeks to...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
I welcome amendment 131, which is intended to provide clarity. However, I have received some feedback from stakeholders that the definitions that are referen...
Liam Kerr
Con
I am grateful for that intervention and for the clarity of my friend Rachael Hamilton. I will take that point on board as the debate progresses. I am, as usu...
Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee for letting us participate in this debate, which is an important one. Many of my amendments in the group deal with rabbits, and I will ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you. I call Colin Smyth to speak to amendment 110 and the other amendments in the group.
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the committee for considering my amendment 110, which relates to a defence for a person who is charged with the offence of hunting a wild animal with...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
I ask Colin Smyth what he means by evidence of “state of mind”.
Colin Smyth
Lab
As the bill stands, we would have to interpret whether the individual “reasonably believed” that any of the exceptions applied. In effect, we would have to r...
Edward Mountain
Con
I find that interesting. If the person wrote an email saying that they thought that fox control was necessary, that would justify the position. A paper copy ...
Colin Smyth
Lab
It would be necessary to prove that the exception existed. If there was an email from those who carried out the hunt that contained information about their b...
The Convener
Con
Because we have now heard from the three members who have lodged amendments, members are free to speak before I invite the minister to speak to the amendment...
Ariane Burgess (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
I will speak to Liam Kerr’s amendment 131. I understand that the thinking behind the amendment is to avoid criminalising people who are genuinely walking the...
Edward Mountain
Con
Will the member give way on that point?
Ariane Burgess
Green
No, I will continue. The SSPCA and the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission gave evidence about the distress that is suffered by hunted rabbits. I understand ...
Mercedes Villalba (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Ariane Burgess
Green
I will not take an intervention. I think that the imperative is to ensure that the legislation, when it is passed, does not allow exceptions to become looph...
Mercedes Villalba
Lab
I thank all members who have lodged amendments in the group. I will support amendment 110, in the name of Colin Smyth, and I urge other committee members to...
Edward Mountain
Con
I understand your concerns, but I do not necessarily agree with them. My concern is that, on one side, we have a Government that for very good reasons is try...
Mercedes Villalba
Lab
It is important that we are clear that there is a difference between wildlife control and the issue in the bill, which is hunting with dogs. I object to anim...
Ariane Burgess
Green
I will pick up on the point about mink. The mink projects in Scotland do not use dogs, and the mink population should be controlled under the environmental b...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
Do you think that removing rabbits from the group that are defined as being wild mammals would have an environmental benefit?
Ariane Burgess
Green
I was making a point about mink.
Rachael Hamilton
Con
You were, but I am trying to debate the points that you made earlier by using that idea as a link.
Ariane Burgess
Green
Mink is the link.
Rachael Hamilton
Con
Yes.
Ariane Burgess
Green
As I said in my statement, rabbits are sentient beings and I think that they should be protected. We took a great deal of evidence on that during our committ...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
I know that you will not accept another intervention, but I did want to ask whether you think that a rat is a sentient being.
The Convener
Con
I call the minister.