Committee
COVID-19 Recovery Committee 09 June 2022
09 Jun 2022 · S6 · COVID-19 Recovery Committee
Item of business
Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendment 1 is the only amendment to the bill that I have lodged. As we have heard from many witnesses at our evidence sessions, the bill is wide ranging, and there is an argument to be made that we should focus better. Umpteen bits of legislation could have been introduced, such as the housing legislation that Scottish Labour very much supports. There is a question about the bill in general, but my amendment seeks specifically to remove the so-called Henry VIII powers. I have argued, and will continue to make the case, for a significant transfer of powers to this Parliament, but the use of the Henry VIII powers basically removes powers from the Parliament, which is the legislature, and puts them into the hands of ministers, or the executive. That cannot be right, and it is why people are rightly using the term “power grab”. I did not particularly support the use of that term at first but, when I looked at the evidence, it was clear that that usage was legitimate. I will not go through all the evidence—there is plenty of it—but I highlight the evidence from Dr Tickell and Professor Britton from Glasgow Caledonian University. In their written response, they said: “While powers of this kind have been used by the UK government to adapt the statute book to the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union, Henry VIII powers are rightly controversial, as they infringe upon the separation of powers, give legislative functions to the executive, and can be imposed with modest opportunities for parliamentary scrutiny, particularly in circumstances when they are used on an emergency basis.” I therefore lodged amendment 1 on a point of principle. Despite the fact that my party supports many aspects of the bill—we think that it should have been done differently, but we support quite a lot of it—because of that point of principle, we could not vote for it. We cannot vote to take powers from the legislature and put them in the hands of the executive. In the stage 1 debate, in my view, the best speaker on the Scottish National Party side of the chamber was John Mason. He made the point that, although he hoped that the Deputy First Minister and First Minister would have a long career in those positions, at some point another Government could be in place. It is the principle that is the point: whoever is in power should not have the powers that are set out in the bill.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Siobhian Brown)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 16th meeting in 2022 of the COVID-19 Recovery Committee. The first and only item on our agenda is consideration of the Coron...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
I have no relevant interests to declare. Section 1—Public health protection measures
The Convener
SNP
The first grouping of amendments is entitled “Public health protection regulations: use of power and safeguards”. Amendment 4, in the name of Brian Whittle, ...
Brian Whittle (South Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, everyone. I have only a couple of amendments in the group. The first one, amendment 4, is quite simple. I would like to understand who determin...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Covid Recovery (John Swinney)
SNP
There is an extensive amount of material in the group of amendments, so I have quite a lot to say. I will try to minimise what I have to say on later amendme...
Brian Whittle
Con
The point is that, especially around health, somebody has to gather and assess information and it should not be ministers who do that. You would rely, specif...
John Swinney
SNP
I would expect the CMO to be involved intimately in that process, but as I have just recounted, it will not always be the CMO who is best placed to do that. ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
In listening to what you have said about Mr Whittle’s amendment 4, I wonder whether there is room to work with Mr Whittle to improve the amendment for stage ...
John Swinney
SNP
I am certainly willing to consider the issues that arise. Colleagues will make a number of points this morning and, perhaps, this evening. I am happy to refl...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
Amendment 1 is the only amendment to the bill that I have lodged. As we have heard from many witnesses at our evidence sessions, the bill is wide ranging, an...
John Swinney
SNP
I understand all the points that Mr Rowley makes, and the strength of his opinion on that point, and I would not question in any way his commendation of John...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I acknowledge that the Deputy First Minister has attempted to address the concerns, but I have to say that—based on the evidence—the attempt does not go far ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Would the member accept that, in effect, Parliament has a veto? That means that a conscious decision would have to be made at the time.
Alex Rowley
Lab
I put that back to Mr Mason: would he accept that the best veto would be to not have the Henry VIII powers in the first place? If we ended up in a situation ...
John Swinney
SNP
In a sense, Mr Rowley has made my argument for me. We all accept the threat of another pandemic. Parliament had to legislate, in extremis, with primary legis...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I have welcomed the steps that the Government has taken. It was suggested that the Government has listened, but those steps do not go far enough. That is the...
John Swinney
SNP
That is not what is happening. It might have been a legitimate accusation in the stage 1 debate, but it is not a legitimate accusation now, because I have lo...
Alex Rowley
Lab
I respectfully disagree. If the Government looked at the evidence and took it seriously, it would support my amendment, which is the only amendment that I am...
Graham Simpson
Con
Before the meeting, Mr Rowley and I made a pact that, if he was brief, I would be brief. I knew that he could not stick to his end of the bargain—but rightly...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
As this is my first contribution, I should refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. I am a member of the Law Society of Scotland and ...
John Mason
SNP
Does the member accept that, as with anything in life, it is better to be prepared? One can never be prepared completely for what will come up, but we all ha...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I thank Mr Mason for that intervention, but, as I set out in the stage 1 debate, there is an alternative approach, which was laid out to the committee by Pro...
Jim Fairlie (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way? 09:45
Murdo Fraser
Con
Let me just finish my sentence if I may, Mr Fairlie. The Parliament has already demonstrated, as it did two years ago, that it can move very quickly in an...
Jim Fairlie
SNP
Murdo Fraser mentioned Professor de Londras. As the conversation went on, during stage 1, I said to her: “The bill simply means that, in a legislative sense...
Murdo Fraser
Con
We have legislative competence here; it is simply a matter of whether we decide to legislate now, putting the power in the hands of ministers to produce regu...
Brian Whittle
Con
Does Mr Fraser agree that the whole point of amending the proposed legislation is to allow for flexibility, as we do not know what is coming down the track a...
Murdo Fraser
Con
Mr Whittle has made a very fair point. That is the purpose of my amendment 7. If amendment 7 does not attract favour—it might not—I have a number of other a...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Mr Fraser set out what he would consider to be practicable in his consultation exercise? I would contend that there was extensive consultation with a my...
Murdo Fraser
Con
I am not expecting unanimity, nor am I proposing in amendment 8 any sort of right of veto for stakeholders against the actions of ministers. It is simply a r...