Committee
Economy and Fair Work Committee 18 May 2022
18 May 2022 · S6 · Economy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Town Centres and Retail
Martin Avila
Watch on SPTV
That is the challenge that colleagues around the table face. We have limited resources and we have to understand where to direct them. I know that this is a bit of a vague response but, realistically, the kind of leadership that we need and who we need to be in leadership depends on who is there at the time, because the individuals will step up and the organisations will step up. What could some of the components of that be? We need to see strong community land trusts and development trusts. We should aim to ensure that every town centre and every town in Scotland is served by a strong community development trust. I do not see any way of moving forward other than by engaging citizens directly in their economy within the civic structures that they have. However, we also need to see that partnership working alongside local authorities. We need to be quite bold there and move past the idea that it is either the state or local enterprise that directs what goes on. I would like to see more work in Scotland around the development of public-common partnerships, where special vehicles are set up between the relevant actors in any one locality in order to develop economic assets and take the town forward. We have to bring in actors such as the Federation of Small Businesses, because local traders care deeply about their towns and their communities. We need to see a blending of those, which will change on a town-to-town basis, because the economic model will be different for each town. There needs to be an ecological approach that takes into consideration the social, financial and natural capital assets of each community, and there must be a blended approach between local authorities, small private businesses and community-focused organisations, social enterprises and development trusts to take that forward. I know that I have kind of avoided the question that you asked but, when it comes to any support that might be put in, we have to take a step back, because we have to support community development trusts and social enterprises to have a stake in schemes that deliver real revenue and are not dependent on the coffers of the state, which is a limited pot. A recent study—forgive me; I cannot remember the name—said that £3.5 billion of value was delivered by onshore wind capacity in Scotland in the past two years and that, through community benefit clauses, £22 million was given to local communities. If we get to a stage at which community development trusts and special purpose vehicles that are public-common partnerships have, say, a 10 per cent stake in every wind farm, the sum that would come to communities would be £350 million. We have to be bold and ask how we create economic enterprise that has an element of common control in our communities, because, in that way, they will be able to develop efficient and effective businesses that will continue to fund them well past the limits of what the state could provide, certainly within one parliamentary term or under one Administration. 10:00
In the same item of business
The Convener (Claire Baker)
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 14th meeting in 2022 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business continues our evidence gathering in o...
Martin Avila (Community Enterprise in Scotland)
I thank the committee for giving me the chance to speak this morning. How we engage the less listened to communities is a wicked problem. Communities in whi...
The Convener
Lab
Martin Avila has referred to the evidence that we heard last week. I do not know whether Dr Orr has had a chance to look at last week’s evidence, which we to...
Dr Allison Orr (University of Glasgow)
I thank the committee for inviting me along. There is certainly an issue with regard to resourcing in planning departments. They are expected to take on more...
The Convener
Lab
I come to Pauline Smith. Would you say a bit about the development trust organisations, how your members engage with communities and how important they are w...
Pauline Smith (Development Trusts Association Scotland)
Our members are from rural and urban locations, so they differ quite drastically from one area to the next. You spoke about the less represented individuals...
The Convener
Lab
I will allow other members to explore some of those issues in more depth in a moment. The committee went to visit Midsteeple Quarter. The community ownership...
Pauline Smith
Yes—that would absolutely be helpful. Obviously, I am passionate about community ownership support. There should be a go-to support provider, but there are o...
The Convener
Lab
I bring in Maggie Chapman, to be followed by Fiona Hyslop.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Pauline Smith mentioned community wealth building. As you will be aware, the Scottish Government has committed to in...
Pauline Smith
We are meeting Ted Howard this afternoon: he is coming to us. He is the guru of community wealth building and is doing a tour at the moment. One pitfall wou...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Dr Orr, we are talking about creating liveable, vibrant and thriving town centres that support the communities that live in and around them. What are the opp...
Dr Orr
In some of the cities that I have studied, there has been a change in the number of residential units, but communities and public services have not kept pace...
Maggie Chapman
Green
Martin, what opportunities are there to drive community enterprise and engagement through legislation?
Martin Avila
If it is okay, I will speak first about the idea of pitfalls. There can be a suggestion of false equivalence between community-run enterprises and general bu...
Fiona Hyslop (Linlithgow) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning. We have heard that every town is unique and that any solution has to be unique to the town, and Pauline Smith noted that we need to have strong...
Pauline Smith
I think that the ball lands with us. We need to work with BIDs, development trusts and CEIS to support and pool our expertise in general. We ask communities ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
What about working with councils?
Pauline Smith
Our community ownership support service and our community shares departments have gone out to local authorities to engage in training—well, we might want to ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Martin Avila said that more is needed in terms of community development, and we have heard calls for council-based activity, town champions and more planners...
Martin Avila
Both—everywhere.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I know, but you will have to—
Martin Avila
That is the challenge that colleagues around the table face. We have limited resources and we have to understand where to direct them. I know that this is ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I move to Allison Orr. When it comes to your concerns about rentier experience, we are, potentially, going to move to an economic model in which there is com...
Dr Orr
When it comes to enterprises, cultural change among landowners is important. We have started to see that cultural change, through the pandemic and even befor...
Martin Avila
May I come in on one point?
The Convener
Lab
If it is brief. We are trying to make progress.
Martin Avila
Yes. Sorry, convener. We have to end false equivalence. Some of the previous Scottish Government rental guarantee schemes were there for developers to be ab...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
So do you recommend rental guarantees for social enterprises that provide housing in town centres?
Martin Avila
Yes. Community Land Scotland produced a great report called “Urban Dwelling: A Vision for Urban Community-led Housing in Scotland” that made recommendations ...