Committee
Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee 23 February 2022
23 Feb 2022 · S6 · Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Witchcraft Act 1563 (Pardon and Memorial) (PE1855)
Welcome to the third meeting in 2022 of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee. There are apologies from our convener, Jackson Carlaw, and I will convene today’s meeting in his place. Agenda item 1 is consideration of continued petitions. PE1855, which was lodged by Claire Mitchell QC, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to pardon, apologise to and create a national monument to memorialise the people in Scotland who were accused and convicted of being witches under the Witchcraft Act 1563. When we last considered the petition, in January, we decided to invite the petitioners here in order to hear from them directly. I am therefore pleased to welcome Claire Mitchell QC, who joins us in the Scottish Parliament, and Zoe Venditozzi, who joins us remotely. Claire, do you have any initial comments?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Convener (David Torrance)
SNP
Welcome to the third meeting in 2022 of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee. There are apologies from our convener, Jackson Carlaw, and ...
Claire Mitchell QC
Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak and to answer any questions that you have for us. We are delighted about the progress that has already b...
The Deputy Convener
SNP
Zoe Venditozzi, do you have any initial comments?
Zoe Venditozzi
I will just say thank you for having us.
The Deputy Convener
SNP
I will start the questions. What first led you to explore the experience of witches who were convicted in Scotland, and why did you feel that it was importan...
Claire Mitchell
I work as a lawyer, and I have specialised over past years in cases that involve miscarriages of justice. I therefore look through the lens of history at whe...
The Deputy Convener
SNP
Thank you for that comprehensive answer. I was going to speak about pardons, an apology and a national monument, all of which you have covered. Does Zoe Vend...
Zoe Venditozzi
It is important and it has become increasingly obvious to us during the campaign that, sadly, the issue is not relegated to the past. There are countries aro...
The Deputy Convener
SNP
Thank you. My colleagues will now ask questions.
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, Zoe and Claire. Thanks for being with us. What would lead to a woman being accused of witchcraft? There are some misapprehensions about the ty...
Zoe Venditozzi
Sadly, that could have been anything. The person might have fallen out with somebody about the price that they had paid for something, they might have been a...
Claire Mitchell
There are misconceptions that the people who were accused were healers or midwives—that is a common misconception—that they had red hair, or that there was s...
The Deputy Convener
SNP
Ruth, do you have any further questions?
Ruth Maguire
SNP
I do. Will I just keep coming back in, convener?
The Deputy Convener
SNP
Yes, please, and indicate when you are finished.
Ruth Maguire
SNP
Okay. I will not wait for an invite. Who would normally conduct the trials, and what sort of evidence would be used to secure a conviction? Claire, you gave...
Claire Mitchell
Certainly. Another misconception is that the trials were religious trials, but they were conducted by the state, and that is why it is appropriate for the st...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
In your opening statement, you mentioned 2,500 people being executed and 4,000 being tortured. How confident are you that the figures set out in the survey o...
Claire Mitchell
The experts have obviously done a great deal of research on the matter. In so far as they have been able to, they have gone through the records of what happe...
Ruth Maguire
SNP
That does say something to the scale of it. I want to ask about the change in law in 1735 after the so-called “glorious revolution”. Will you talk a bit mor...
Claire Mitchell
I will answer that legal question and then perhaps Zoe Venditozzi can take over. The state and the church vehemently believed that the devil was among us....
Ruth Maguire
SNP
Zoe, do you have anything to add on those questions?
Zoe Venditozzi
No. Claire has definitely covered everything from the legal perspective. I am not a lawyer; I have come into this like any normal person who does not know an...
Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
It has been fascinating to hear the history that you have given us and to gain an understanding of the culture in Scotland at the time and the power of the s...
Claire Mitchell
We of course acknowledge that these things happened a very long time ago. That is a relevant and necessary question for us to be able to answer. My first ans...
Zoe Venditozzi
I would just say that, although we have changed a lot over time and have, obviously, grown and now view ourselves as being more civilised, there is still an ...
Alexander Stewart
Con
You talk about the miscarriage of justice, and I think that many people would identify that as the core issue. However, many would also identify the fact tha...
Claire Mitchell
Absolutely—I could not agree more. That is exactly how it was. What we want for Scotland in the 21st century and looking forward is a generation that comes a...
The Deputy Convener
SNP
I believe that Ruth Maguire has some more questions. 10:30
Ruth Maguire
SNP
I think that they have been covered. I wanted to explore a bit more the discriminatory nature of the issue, but the petitioners have told us in their evidenc...