Committee
Social Justice and Social Security Committee 27 January 2022
27 Jan 2022 · S6 · Social Justice and Social Security Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Social Security Information-sharing (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2022 [Draft]
I thank the minister for the points that he set out as a result of that question. However, I am not sure that he set out whether it is his intention to get rid of the 20m rule. I ask him to address that point. I also noted the minister’s point about now not being the time. I cannot help but say that we were also told that in 2018, when disabled people—and the Scottish Labour Party—were keen to put the ambition that they wanted on the face of the bill. We were told in 2018 to trust that the issue would be sorted in regulations, but here we are in 2022 and the eligibility criteria and the adequacy of the payments under the new system will not be addressed until after the review, which looks like it will not happen until at least 2025. Disabled people, 31 per cent of whom are living in poverty in this country, are being told that now is not the time. I hope that the time will be soon and I ask the minister to say when that will be. I will move on to my other questions. I thank the minister for his reassurance about the way in which the descriptors will be applied. I am confident that some of the work that has gone into training through Social Security Scotland means that that may well be borne out—we look forward to seeing that and to scrutinising it further. Have you considered a system that is not a functional one but which is points based? What else you could do to address that issue, and when? Is the minister able to be more explicit around psychological distress and how that will be applied in the descriptors and the assessment process? We have heard from many people who have given evidence to the committee that there is not enough in the regulations about the ability to make a journey safely. That can make things very difficult for people who have mental health issues to get the enhanced rate. How does the Government plan to address that? Related to that, a number of organisations and people have told us that changing and variable conditions are not addressed to any significant extent in the regulations. Can the minister set out how those concerns will be addressed in the regulations or in future guidance? I appreciate that I am asking a lot of questions, but I have the talking stick for only a limited period. Can the minister also set out how he sees the relationship and possible divergence between UK and Scottish case law developing as the payments are rolled out? For example, what would happen if a change in UK case law meant that the UK system became more generous than its counterpart here? Finally, will there be any explicit reference in guidance to how the new system will support people with mental ill health through the application process? Can the minister set out what that support would look like? Thank you.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Elena Whitham)
SNP
Thank you very much. I look forward to working with the committee. This morning, we will consider three items of subordinate legislation, as outlined on the...
The Minister for Social Security and Local Government (Ben Macpherson)
SNP
Good morning. Welcome to the committee, convener, and congratulations on your new role. Thank you for inviting me to give evidence on these important regula...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for that opening statement, minister. I know that my fellow committee members are passionate about this subject and they have many questions to put...
Marie McNair (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, convener, and congratulations on your appointment. Good morning, minister. Is it the case that if the Westminster Government got rid of the 20m ...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Marie McNair is raising the important point about why the eligibility criteria that we are proposing need to be largely the same as those for PIP. The commit...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, minister. Marie, do you have anything further?
Marie McNair
SNP
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Ben Macpherson
SNP
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Marie McNair
SNP
The changes to terminal illness criteria will make a huge difference. Not only is a time limit no longer required, which is fantastic, but the award is more ...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Marie McNair is absolutely right to highlight those important differences. Not so long ago, I was a member of the Social Security Committee during the progre...
Pam Duncan-Glancy (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Congratulations on your appointment as convener of the committee. I put on record my thanks to Neil Gray, who was an excellent convener. We will miss him, an...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for her engagement and for her recognition of the significant changes that are being made. On the points raised about our being co...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, minister. I can see from the chat that Evelyn Tweed wants to come in. Is it on that point?
Evelyn Tweed (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
Yes, it is, convener.
The Convener
SNP
Go ahead.
Evelyn Tweed
SNP
Can you outline for the committee the Scottish Commission on Social Security’s view on how the Scottish Government is dealing with eligibility? What was its ...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
That is an important point to raise. I know from the committee’s evidence on 16 December 2021 and from correspondence that I sent to the committee that you w...
Pam Duncan-Glancy
Lab
I thank the minister for the points that he set out as a result of that question. However, I am not sure that he set out whether it is his intention to get r...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I will try to come back on as many of those questions as possible. Forgive me if you have to come back on some of them, given their extent. As I said, we ne...
Janet Richardson (Social Security Scotland)
Good morning, convener and committee members, and thank you, minister. I want to pick up on the point about the support that we are providing for clients wit...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. Minister, do you have anything further to add?
Ben Macpherson
SNP
I want to bring in Nathan Gale to elaborate on some of the points that I made on psychological distress, safety and case law, which I hope will be helpful in...
Nathan Gale (Scottish Government)
Thank you, minister, and good morning, convener and members. Ms Duncan-Glancy raised an important point about the ability to do activities safely and the e...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much for that. Minister, do you have anything further to add, or are we able to move on?
Ben Macpherson
SNP
There is nothing further from me. I hope that the information that officials and I have provided has covered the points that Ms Duncan-Glancy wished us to co...
The Convener
SNP
I am going to hand the talking stick over to Jeremy Balfour. I will hand it back to Pam Duncan-Glancy when we move on to the next theme.
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning, convener. I add my congratulations on your appointment. I look forward to working with you. I also wish Neil Gray all the best in his new role ...
Ben Macpherson
SNP
Thank you, Mr Balfour. As you would expect, as new case law emerges, we regularly and consistently consider its application and its repercussions for all the...
Kayleigh Blair (Scottish Government)
Good morning, convener and members. I thank the member for the question. The minister is correct that, as case law emerges, consideration is given to how it...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
I thank Ms Blair for that answer. Some of the key decisions around PIP and DLA have been made by the Supreme Court, so any decision that might be made by the...