Committee
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee 23 February 2021
23 Feb 2021 · S5 · Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning. My amendment 17 recognises that the process has been rushed and that we lack a solid evidence base. It would require more dialogue between the Government and those who will be impacted by the bill. It would create a consultative period of a minimum of 24 months before the code could be introduced. The reason for that is, I think, obvious. As well as the lack of evidence, we must take due cognisance of where we are at the moment with the pandemic and the impact that it is having on the hospitality industry. When the proposal for the bill was floated by the member back in 2016 and when it was formally intimated in January 2020, none of us could have foreseen what was about to hit our country and our world. As we all know, the pandemic has changed our lives and impacted everything. The fact that we are meeting virtually is testament to that. The pandemic has absolutely devastated the hospitality industry and, in the past 12 months, regardless of whether they are tied or independent free trade, managed or free of tie, pubs have spent the majority of the time under forced closure. Grants and support from both the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments have been instrumental in keeping such businesses afloat and we hope to provide as many as possible with a bridge to the other side of the pandemic. Even with that, however, figures from CGA have shown that a further 4 per cent of pubs in Scotland closed for good between December 2019 and December 2020 and, unfortunately, further business failures are expected. We have had representations from groups on both sides of the debate and I have read those with interest along with the committee’s report and the Official Report of the stage 1 debate. Everyone is clear that the hospitality industry will continue to face pressures, even after the pandemic. Obviously, pubs want to open sooner rather than later, but they are realistic. They know that we need to support the national health service and save lives. Until we have clear guidance about when pubs may open, the pressures will continue. It will be a long road back even when they do open, and unfortunately some pubs and other businesses will not make it beyond the pandemic. If the committee and indeed the Parliament burden such businesses with further regulation, cost and bureaucracy at this time, it will compound those pressures and make it likely that we will see fewer pubs reopening when they are allowed to. The proposed legislation affects only a small proportion of the market, but those businesses have arguably received more support from the pub-owning companies than those who operate in independent free trade or under another agreement. The vast majority of pub-owning companies have committed themselves to reviewing rents once businesses have reopened. There is a common understanding that trading might be at a lower level because of social distancing and that pubs may require different support, with reduced payments. That commitment comes on top of the cancellation of any built-in rent increases that were due before the pandemic hit. I have had the opportunity to speak to different pub-owning businesses, particularly in my region, and they have illustrated that the support through rent reductions has been based on the individual circumstances of businesses. That prioritisation of support by pubcos has meant that businesses that received nothing in grant payments from the Government last year—those businesses with rateable values over £51,000—have been given a fighting chance of survival. The point is that the bill was written before any of that happened. All those factors need to be considered when the committee decides on the bill that is before it today. We must listen directly to the operators who will be impacted. One such tenant, Andrena Bowes, who runs several pubs across Edinburgh, said: “The coronavirus has devastated the pub sector and politicians should be focused on that, not wasting time on proposals which aren’t wanted and definitely not needed.” My second major point—I will make it more briefly if I can, convener—is about the number of pubs that we are talking about and the impact that the bill will have on them. Several of them are in my region. I will not read out all their names because of time, but at least 10 to 15 of them are concerned about the bill. We must heed the warnings from those tenants because, after all, they are the ones who are meant to benefit from the bill. We must also analyse the data that the member in charge of the bill, Mr Bibby, used to back up his reasons for introducing it. The consultation that he carried out on his proposal received a very limited response from the tenants that it will impact. If we look again at the evidence that he took, we see that only nine tenants of pubs responded. More Labour MSPs responded to the consultation than people in the sector, yet the takeaway or the headline was that 78 per cent of respondents were in favour of the bill. That gives equal weight to MSPs and people who run pubs, which is not correct. Surely we must listen to those whom the bill would most impact—those whose businesses would be impacted, and especially those whose businesses are meant to benefit. Amendment 17 would allow further scrutiny of the proposals and time for the industry to recover from the pandemic. It would help to ensure that we and the Government did not take a huge misstep that would only result in further hardship for the sector, further pub closures and more job losses. I urge the committee to back my amendment. 09:30
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 2, the committee will consider the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge o...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Maurice Golden, is grouped with amendments 16 and 17. I will call Maurice Golden to move amendment 15 and speak to all the amend...
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener.—Inaudible.—approaching the bill. It is unhelpful to take a Marxist view of tenants versus landlords or multinationals versus tenants wit...
The Convener
Con
Willie Coffey would like to make a point of order.
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
On a point of order, convener. I want to get your guidance on how much time you will allow for members to make their points. Maurice Golden spoke for more t...
The Convener
Con
My notes suggest that he spoke for seven minutes and not 10. However, the record will show how long it was. The reason for allowing Maurice Golden some leewa...
Willie Coffey
SNP
Thank you, convener.
The Convener
Con
Bearing that comment in mind, I turn to another member of the committee. Richard Lyle, you will start at 09:17, according to my clock.
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
SNP
Am I going to be timed? During the pandemic, it has been evident that the hospitality industry has arguably suffered the most. With lockdowns, strict restri...
The Convener
Con
We need not worry too much about that. It was brief and to the point, as always. I have two points to make. First, I have been advised by the clerks that, t...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. My amendment 17 recognises that the process has been rushed and that we lack a solid evidence base. It would require more dialogue between the ...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
You will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak to every group of amendments, convener. The committee has a responsibility, which I wrote to the co...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
A number of members have discussed how we should approach the amending stage. Having dealt with a number of bills in the current parliamentary session, I bel...
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn)
SNP
I am here today to set out the Government’s views on amendments to the bill. I stress that it is, of course, not a Government bill, but Mr Bibby’s member’s b...
The Convener
Con
Before Neil Bibby winds up on the group, I want to ask the minister about the proposal in subsection (c) in amendment 17 that the Scottish ministers must “h...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Of course not, convener—
The Convener
Con
Inaudible.—I think that a contrast is drawn out there between Scottish law and English law.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I beg your pardon, convener. I did not hear part of what you said. However, my perspective is that we clearly have to have regard to those matters. Anything ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you, minister. We come to Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill.
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. First, I respectfully say to the committee that the purpose of stage 2 is not to reopen the debate on the general principles of the bill, as Mr...
The Convener
Con
I ask Maurice Golden to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 15.
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener. If the bill is passed and the Scottish Government has the same composition by the time the act is in place, my amendment 15, which chang...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 15 disagreed to.
The Convener
Con
Does Richard Lyle wish to move amendment 16?
Richard Lyle
SNP
I listened with interest to the comments that were made about my amendment and I have taken them on board. I will not move the amendment. I am sure that Mr R...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 17 disagreed to. Section 1 agreed to. Schedule 1—The Scottish Pubs Code