Committee
Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee 23 February 2021
23 Feb 2021 · S5 · Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning. First, I respectfully say to the committee that the purpose of stage 2 is not to reopen the debate on the general principles of the bill, as Mr Lyle and Mr Golden seem to have done. We have not arrived at this point by accident. Parliament agreed to the general principles of the bill at stage 1. The bill has Government support, albeit with caveats, and I thank the minister for his on-going engagement with regard to it. I note members’ comments about the stage 2 proceedings happening during a pandemic, but the bill was voted on at stage 1 during the pandemic, and it will help the pub sector and publicans to recover, as Alex Rowley said. I hope that the bill will help them to build back better after the pandemic. The bill is supported by evidence from pub tenants across Scotland and by the evidence that the committee took. Ultimately, that was strong enough to persuade Parliament to endorse the bill at stage 1. The bill is aimed at supporting small businesses. I take a pro-small-business view, not a Marxist view or a Thatcherite view. It is a pro-small-business bill. I note that Mr Golden signed the final proposal for the bill and voted for the bill at stage 1, so I am disappointed that his amendment 15 would change the arrangement for the establishment of a Scottish pubs code from a requirement to an option for the Government. That would completely undermine the purpose of the bill as set out in the long title and the general principles of the bill as agreed by Parliament at stage 1. I therefore urge the committee to reject amendment 15. Richard Lyle’s amendment 16 would do likewise by requiring an existing code of practice—presumably, it would be the voluntary code—to be provided for in regulations, rather than a Scottish pubs code being introduced, as is provided for by the bill. Like Mr Lyle, I would have preferred the voluntary code to be sufficient, but unfortunately it does not have the confidence of tied pub tenants. I therefore ask Mr Lyle not to move his amendment 16; otherwise, I urge the committee to reject it. I also urge the committee to reject Jeremy Balfour’s amendment 17, which would require a consultation on a draft code for a minimum of two years, meaning that the code would not be in place for several years. Amendment 17 would also provide other hurdles including a requirement for the publication of economic and human rights assessments, which I do not consider appropriate or necessary.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Under agenda item 2, the committee will consider the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge o...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 15, in the name of Maurice Golden, is grouped with amendments 16 and 17. I will call Maurice Golden to move amendment 15 and speak to all the amend...
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener.—Inaudible.—approaching the bill. It is unhelpful to take a Marxist view of tenants versus landlords or multinationals versus tenants wit...
The Convener
Con
Willie Coffey would like to make a point of order.
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
On a point of order, convener. I want to get your guidance on how much time you will allow for members to make their points. Maurice Golden spoke for more t...
The Convener
Con
My notes suggest that he spoke for seven minutes and not 10. However, the record will show how long it was. The reason for allowing Maurice Golden some leewa...
Willie Coffey
SNP
Thank you, convener.
The Convener
Con
Bearing that comment in mind, I turn to another member of the committee. Richard Lyle, you will start at 09:17, according to my clock.
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
SNP
Am I going to be timed? During the pandemic, it has been evident that the hospitality industry has arguably suffered the most. With lockdowns, strict restri...
The Convener
Con
We need not worry too much about that. It was brief and to the point, as always. I have two points to make. First, I have been advised by the clerks that, t...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. My amendment 17 recognises that the process has been rushed and that we lack a solid evidence base. It would require more dialogue between the ...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
You will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak to every group of amendments, convener. The committee has a responsibility, which I wrote to the co...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
A number of members have discussed how we should approach the amending stage. Having dealt with a number of bills in the current parliamentary session, I bel...
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn)
SNP
I am here today to set out the Government’s views on amendments to the bill. I stress that it is, of course, not a Government bill, but Mr Bibby’s member’s b...
The Convener
Con
Before Neil Bibby winds up on the group, I want to ask the minister about the proposal in subsection (c) in amendment 17 that the Scottish ministers must “h...
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
Of course not, convener—
The Convener
Con
Inaudible.—I think that a contrast is drawn out there between Scottish law and English law.
Jamie Hepburn
SNP
I beg your pardon, convener. I did not hear part of what you said. However, my perspective is that we clearly have to have regard to those matters. Anything ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you, minister. We come to Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill.
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Good morning. First, I respectfully say to the committee that the purpose of stage 2 is not to reopen the debate on the general principles of the bill, as Mr...
The Convener
Con
I ask Maurice Golden to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 15.
Maurice Golden
Con
Thank you, convener. If the bill is passed and the Scottish Government has the same composition by the time the act is in place, my amendment 15, which chang...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 15 disagreed to.
The Convener
Con
Does Richard Lyle wish to move amendment 16?
Richard Lyle
SNP
I listened with interest to the comments that were made about my amendment and I have taken them on board. I will not move the amendment. I am sure that Mr R...
The Convener
Con
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
Con
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against ...
The Convener
Con
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 17 disagreed to. Section 1 agreed to. Schedule 1—The Scottish Pubs Code