Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 15 December 2020
15 Dec 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank the convener of the Justice Committee for his thoughtful speech. I accept what he says, and I will go back and reflect further on whether we can give a definition of “abusive” in the bill and not just in the explanatory notes. I commit to doing that.
However, does he accept that, even if there is a discussion or debate on the definition of “abusive”, the second part of the legal test is crucial and that, to use his example, it would have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that a person intended to stir up hatred against somebody else because of their transgender identity?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald)
Lab
The next item of business is a stage 1 debate on motion S5M-23682, in the name of Humza Yousaf, on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. Members...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf)
SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 1 debate on the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I intend to respond in my speech to a number of issues that were...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Does the cabinet secretary agree that significant numbers of women are targeted precisely because they are women?
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Yes, I am certain that that is the case. I will come to a section later in my speech on the misogynistic harassment working group, which will look at the iss...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Does the cabinet secretary agree that hate crime can be tackled without violating the fundamental right of freedom of expression?
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Absolutely—that is my entire point. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive. Liam Kerr will know that we have in the bill provisions on freedom of expre...
Johann Lamont
Lab
I am sure that the cabinet secretary would recognise that hatred of women, which has been expressed through the centuries, is nothing new. Last Thursday, I...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I do not think that Johann Lamont is interpreting the legislation correctly at all. It does not concern subjective opinions in relation to, for example, the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Adam Tomkins to open the debate on behalf of the Justice Committee. 16:17
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
Our law reports are replete with resounding statements on the importance of free speech. In the case of R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex pa...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I thank the convener of the Justice Committee for his thoughtful speech. I accept what he says, and I will go back and reflect further on whether we can give...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Absolutely—I accept that. However, the committee received a pile of evidence to the effect that we need to think not just about what happens in the criminal ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am pleased to open for the Scottish Conservatives in the debate on whether the Parliament should agree to the principles of the Hate Crime and Public Order...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member accept that there are other aspects of the criminal law that impact on what happens in one’s home?
Liam Kerr
Con
I do. We heard about that in committee. However, I think that my point stands. We do not have protection in the bill for things that are said in the privacy ...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr
Con
Do I have time, Presiding Officer?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Yes, if it is a quick one.
Humza Yousaf
SNP
Thus far, Liam Kerr has not really mentioned the victims of hate crime. What does he say to the Equality Network, Stonewall, racial equality organisations, t...
Liam Kerr
Con
I say that I thank them very much for their counsel in the committee sessions. I am not sure that this is the point that the cabinet secretary was making, bu...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I start by echoing some of the comments that Liam Kerr made about the committee and the drafting of its report. I pay tribute to the clerks, to all those who...
Liam Kerr
Con
I am grateful to Rhoda Grant for taking a very quick intervention. She knows that I share a lot of her concerns on that issue. Where is Scottish Labour at th...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
Obviously, we are considering that as part of what we may do at stage 2. I am not saying that we will do it, but we are looking at it and we will look at the...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I will address Rhoda Grant’s point about there being an easy defence in my closing speech. On the reasonableness defence, I am struggling to understand how b...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I do not have an example, but the law needs to take account of every possible scenario. We have to be careful not to do anything that impinges on people’s fr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
The bill has taken a rather unusual route thus far. It has certainly prompted a lot of debate. I thank the people who helped us to get to this point: the wit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani)
SNP
Liam Kerr please, for up to six minutes—sorry, Liam McArthur. 16:55
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
You are not the first and you will not be the last, Presiding Officer. In normal times, this would have been a complex and sensitive bill with potentially f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
All the opening speeches went over time, so we will be strict with the open debate. Members have six minutes for speeches, which must include any interventio...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased to speak in the stage 1 debate on the bill, whose general principles I will support today. As the Justice Committee’s deputy convener, I add my ...