Committee
Public Petitions Committee 25 November 2020
25 Nov 2020 · S5 · Public Petitions Committee
Item of business
Continued Petitions
Public Access Defibrillators (PE1707)
David McColgan (British Heart Foundation Scotland)
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Thank you very much for inviting us to the meeting today and a huge thank you to Kathleen and the Orr family for all the work they are doing in bringing the issue to Parliament. The British Heart Foundation has submitted some written evidence, which is available on the Parliament’s website. We do not support the key point of petition regarding every new or refurbished building of more than 7,500m2 having an externally fitted PAD. There are a number of reasons for that, one of which is that we believe it would exacerbate health inequalities around a possible cardiac arrest. In some areas of Scotland—Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee—there will be a major increase in the number of buildings of that size. If we were to go to somewhere like Wick or the island communities, however, we would probably not see many buildings of that size. We have concerns about that. The principle of the petition is absolutely right: more public access defibrillators are a good thing. However, we need to take a strategic approach, especially when public funds might be invested or where there are legal requirements on individuals. Two key points are needed to allow us to take that strategic approach. First, we do not know where every defib in Scotland is. If we were to think about Sauchiehall Street in Glasgow, we might end up putting 15 or 20 defibs on there because of the size of the buildings, but if we were to go out to Rutherglen or Hyndland, there might not be any defibs there. A lot of international studies have shown that with defib placement, we end up with over provision in areas with lower incidents of cardiac arrest, and under provision in less remote areas. Secondly, Scotland does not have a publicly accessible registry of where cardiac arrests happen so people cannot make strategic decisions to put defibrillators in the right places. As I said, we do not have those things, but major work is being done in Scotland. The British Heart Foundation, Microsoft and the Scottish Ambulance Service have been working on the circuit and the national defibrillator network, which we hope will be able to map where the defibs are in Scotland, and allow the ambulance service to direct people to their nearest one. Gareth Clegg will probably speak to it in a moment, but the Resuscitation Research Group over at the University of Edinburgh has been working on a PAD placement project that marks where cardiac arrests are and where PADs need to go. Although we do not support the 7,500m2 provision, the conversation is really important to the understanding of how the Government, local authorities and other organisations play a role in deciding where to place defibs. Kathleen Orr’s point is absolutely right that more defibs will give people an opportunity to use them and save lives. We welcome the petition but we want to hear more conversation rather than just the 7,500m2 provision that is in the petition.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Johann Lamont)
Lab
Good morning, and welcome to this virtual meeting of the Public Petitions Committee. The first item on our agenda today is consideration of continued petiti...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. The statement that I am about to read out is from Kathleen Orr. “I would just like to add to my statement that ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much, Stuart. I think that we all agree that that is a very powerful statement and we appreciate just how difficult it is for the family to de...
Steven Short (Scottish Ambulance Service)
Good morning, everyone, and thank you for inviting me along today. Mrs Orr has raised a very reasonable point in the petition. Many of the cardiac arrests th...
The Convener
Lab
Who should be responsible for deciding where PADs are positioned?
Steven Short
The key about a publicly available defib, or a PAD as we call them, is that it needs to be accessible 24/7. Studies from around the world show us that if it ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much. Does David McColgan want to respond?
David McColgan (British Heart Foundation Scotland)
Thank you very much for inviting us to the meeting today and a huge thank you to Kathleen and the Orr family for all the work they are doing in bringing the ...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. In your submission, you noted that you were undertaking to gather national evidence on the subject. Has that work been completed?
David McColgan
That is Dr Clegg and Dr Clyde’s project as funded by Scottish Government at the Resuscitation Research Group. Gareth Clegg will speak to that.
The Convener
Lab
Are you not involved in that work?
David McColgan
No, the British Heart Foundation has not been involved. That is very much Dr Clegg’s territory and I will leave it to him to speak to that.
The Convener
Lab
Thanks very much. In that case, I ask Dr Clegg to respond to my first question, and to speak to where we are with the research.
Dr Gareth Clegg (Resuscitation Research Group)
Just to clarify the landscape a little bit, I am here today with three hats on. One is as an emergency medicine doctor in Edinburgh. I have worked in cardiac...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much, that is really helpful. In the context of defibrillators, is there a role for broader first aid training? The committee has looked at th...
Dr Clegg
I am sorry—I did not realise that the question was aimed at me. Are you asking whether we should be trying to increase first aid training generally in the co...
The Convener
Lab
I am wondering whether, from what you said, there might be a false comfort zone if we provide defibrillators but do not do the other things that you talked a...
Dr Clegg
That is an excellent point. I think, if I understand you correctly, that you are saying that it is not enough just to have the PADs out there, and that peopl...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much for that. I will bring in David McColgan then Steven Short for views on people having confidence to use a defibrillator.
David McColgan
I will pick up on Gareth Clegg’s point. We know from national evidence that just placing PADs around a community does not encourage people to use them. About...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. Steven—do you want to say something about the context for your work?
Steven Short
I agree with everything that Gareth Clegg and David McColgan have said so far. The United Kingdom picture and the international picture are fairly consistent...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. Stuart McMillan wants to come in.
Stuart McMillan
SNP
I just want to make a point regarding visibility of and access to PADs. If people see more of them in their communities, surely a knock-on effect will be tha...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much. That might be something that we will come back to when we hear more from our witnesses. I call Maurice Corry.
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning, panel. I thank the petitioner for lodging this very important petition. I will start with Steven Short. The petition calls for the PADs to be r...
Steven Short
We have, as David McColgan mentioned in answer to the first question, a registry of defibrillators called the Circuit. It is a collaboration between the Scot...
Maurice Corry
Con
Yes, it does. However, David McColgan said that by no means are all PADS registered, so there is a gap. I presume that that gap will be filled through Micros...
Dr Clegg
I agree with Steven Short. It is self-evident that if people do not know where a defib is they cannot use it, so defibs need to be well signposted to the peo...
Maurice Corry
Con
Are you saying that the register should include just those that are active and in 100 per cent working order?