Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 09 September 2020
09 Sep 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right—of course, those protections should be in place. The Parliament respects him as an individual for the way that he has handled the many horrible things that have happened to him and his family.
At the base point of the debate is language—the words that matter in a bill and the interpretation of that wording in law. The concern on this side of the chamber is that that interpretation is open to so much chance and dispute that the bill as it stands—particularly part 2—is in danger of inciting some of the worst aspects of human behaviour. Is it not right that we remove the bill and start again?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Lewis Macdonald)
Lab
Yesterday evening, we had the return of members’ business. This afternoon, we have the return of Opposition business. The next item of business is a Conserv...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
The debate is on a motion that opens by acknowledging that we, as a Parliament, must address the pernicious and vile hate crimes that remain all too prevalen...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf)
SNP
I would like clarification, because I am obviously not on the Justice Committee. Did Liam Kerr not know the number of submissions that had been received befo...
Liam Kerr
Con
I am not sure that we did know that. We do not know exactly how many submissions there are yet because of the sheer volume of them. I understand that a numbe...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
Does the member agree that women’s organisations and equality organisations are supportive of a stand-alone offence?
Liam Kerr
Con
Yes, I do. From what I have seen, there is a broad range of opinion on the matter, as I am sure Rona Mackay will agree. That is exactly my point. We need to ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
Will Liam Kerr at least acknowledge that pro-equality organisations are largely arguing in favour of the provisions and that nobody has, as far as I am aware...
Liam Kerr
Con
Of course I acknowledge that, because there are all their submissions. My point is very clear: those are all opinions and views that have been very carefully...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I remind members that time is not on our side this afternoon. I urge them to stick to their time as far as possible. 15:21
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Humza Yousaf)
SNP
I thank Liam Kerr and the Conservatives for lodging the motion, because it is always important that we talk about how we intend collectively to tackle hate c...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right—of course, those protections should be in place. The Parliament respects him as an individual for the way that he h...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
The racial stirring-up offence has existed since 1986—for 34 years. In my reading of it—I am happy for anybody to challenge me—I have not been able to find a...
Patrick Harvie
Green
As well as victims and potential victims of hate crime wanting that clarity, there is a good argument that everybody who fears that they might be accused of ...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
There is certainly an argument to be made to that effect. I say to all members that I am not attempting to rush the parliamentary process. I think that the t...
Liam Kerr
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I will give way to Liam Kerr in just a second. Before I do so, I note that Lord Bracadale said that the extension of the stirring-up offences would not “seri...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The cabinet secretary is into the last minute of his speech, so please make this intervention very brief.
Liam Kerr
Con
I shall be brief, Presiding Officer. Does the cabinet secretary not accept that he has made my point for me? There is a danger that part 2, the stirring-up o...
Humza Yousaf
SNP
I do not accept that. There is enough time for us to give due attention to the stirring-up offences and to some of the other points that the member has legit...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
Hate crime has no place in a modern Scotland; it is simply wrong. No one should be subject to hatred. To subject people to hatred because of their race, gend...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
I thank the member for giving way. Would she accept that, first, intent is extremely difficult to prove and that, secondly, there is room to improve the word...
Rhoda Grant
Lab
I welcome John Mason’s intervention and I hope that that is a sign that Government back benchers are looking to amend the legislation. As I was saying, Lord...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
I will talk about the specifics of the amendment in my name, such as the “piecemeal” nature of “the development of hate crime law”, which has resulted in “...
Liam Kerr
Con
That is a very important point. I hear what John Finnie says about Lord Bracadale’s report, but does he not accept that, in the implementation, there is a da...
John Finnie
Green
I am grateful to the member for the intervention. I will come on to that, and I will cover the competing arguments on the issue. As far as we are concerned,...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I, too, welcome today’s debate on the Government’s Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. I thank Liam Kerr for enabling it, although I regret the Tori...
Patrick Harvie
Green
I agree with the sentiment that the member has expressed. However, does he also accept that freedom of speech does not include the protection of threatening ...
Liam McArthur
LD
That is a fair comment. However, we need to take seriously the concerns that have been expressed about the way that part 2 of the bill engages with those fre...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We now move to the open debate. 15:52
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak and to address the Conservative motion, which makes it clear that the Conservatives believe that hate crime should not be ...