Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 19 December 2019
19 Dec 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendums (Scotland) Bill
I will address that question in two ways. First, the bill does not create a Scottish independence referendum—no ifs, no buts. It puts in place a framework, which could be built on by a section 30 order or by legislation at Westminster. The bill creates the circumstances in which we could have referendums. It is certainly possible that people, including any successor Government to this one, will come to the chamber with other ideas. This framework will allow that to happen.
Secondly, to put it bluntly, no, I do not think that it would be irresponsible to press ahead with a referendum on Scotland’s constitutional future. The nature of the Brexit that we face is clear. The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, which has been introduced in the UK Parliament, indicates what type of Brexit it will be. There is no such thing as a good Brexit, just degrees of bad Brexits. Given what we now know will take place, it will be a very bad Brexit indeed.
I think that we are in a position to judge accurately what will happen in Scotland on matters such as migration. Therefore, the sooner that we are able to take a decision, move on and re-enter the European Union—because, regrettably, it looks as though we will leave—the better it will be for Scotland.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-20237, in the name of Michael Russell, on the Referendums (Scotland) Bill at stage 3.
The Cabinet Secretary for Government Business and Constitutional Relations (Michael Russell)
SNP
I thank all those who have been involved in shaping and developing the bill over the past few months. I am very grateful to the bill team, which has done a t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Excuse me, cabinet secretary. I say to all members that Parliament has resumed, so no private conversations should be going on and no backs should be turned ...
Michael Russell
SNP
It is perfectly possible to shape and develop a bill in a way that makes it better. That has happened in the case of this bill, and I am grateful to each mem...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
I believe that the cabinet secretary has said that there are no plans to have any referendum other than one on Scotland’s constitutional future. I accept the...
Michael Russell
SNP
I will address that question in two ways. First, the bill does not create a Scottish independence referendum—no ifs, no buts. It puts in place a framework, w...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary make it clear that the only reason he foresees using the legislation is for an independence referendum?
Michael Russell
SNP
I have never said that. In fact, I gave evidence to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which Mr Simpson convenes, on other areas in which I thoug...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
We all know the reality, Presiding Officer. This was not intended, and never was intended, by the Scottish National Party to be a framework bill for all refe...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
SNP
Does Adam Tomkins not agree that people can change their mind, as Jackson Carlaw did on his position regarding Brexit?
Adam Tomkins
Con
I take the First Minister at her word. I would have thought that, as a very loyal servant of the First Minister, the member would do the same. The First Mini...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins
Con
I will happily give way to Mr Harvie in one minute. If we are really to have a legislative framework for referendums, we surely need to have some grasp of w...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Those are important questions, but would it not be regrettable if we were to pass framework legislation that took a restrictive view? For example, the bill a...
Adam Tomkins
Con
That is right. There is a degree of flexibility about that. However, it does not address the critical question, which, as Michael Russell said in his opening...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Come to a close, please.
Adam Tomkins
Con
—which was delivered by Her Majesty from the throne in the House of Lords this afternoon, made it perfectly clear that this people’s Government will not allo...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
In opening the debate for Scottish Labour at stage 1, I said that “If we, as a country, were to want to move to a more direct democracy in which referendums...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in favour of the bill, which I do confident in the knowledge that pretty much no serious evidence was submitted...
Mike Rumbles (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
MSPs from all across the chamber should be here to speak in support of a non-controversial technical bill to manage the detail of referendums that might take...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike Rumbles
LD
I am afraid that I have only four minutes. Patrick Harvie complained earlier about my use of the phrase “mask of nationalism”, but it is an apt phrase. Mr H...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles
LD
Because I have more time, I will give way.
Patrick Harvie
Green
I say, with the best will in the world, that I would not call Mike Rumbles a British nationalist, and he would not thank me if I did. Would he please pay the...
Mike Rumbles
LD
No, because that is exactly what the Green Party is—a nationalist party. It is amazing that it pretends that it is not a nationalist party. The Scottish Gov...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
I want to do two things in the time that we have available for today’s important debate. Before I do that, I note that I am disappointed in the boorish and r...
Alexander Burnett (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Con
We could have been spending the last moments of this year in Parliament debating something that is important to the majority of people in Scotland. We could ...
Bruce Crawford
SNP
Can Alexander Burnett give us an example of where the committee failed in the parliamentary scrutiny process or, indeed, where extra time should have been bu...
Alexander Burnett
Con
I think that we would all have wanted more time for the Electoral Commission to give its agreement to the bill. That is one example, and it is very sad that ...