Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 04 June 2019
04 Jun 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Whole-life Custody Sentences
No, thank you.
We also need to keep under review the sentencing options that are available to our courts, although the process for doing so is the one that is set out in Pauline McNeill’s amendment, rather than the dog-whistle, grandstanding approach of Liam Kerr.
As Fergus McNeill, professor of criminology at the University Glasgow, points out:
“Legislating for whole life tariffs is regressive and un-necessary. It also communicates a troubling message about giving up on the possibility of human development, turning imprisonment into warehousing.”
Jamie Buchan, lecturer in criminology at Edinburgh Napier University, adds that the likely longer-term effect of introducing the measure would be that
“either judges don’t use it in which case it’s been a waste of time, or the definition of ‘most serious’ creeps outward to encompass more & more cases”,
as we are seeing in England and Wales.
Neither outcome represents progress or would lead to a more effective justice system. I support the amendment in the minister’s name.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17503, in the name of Liam Kerr, on whole-life custody sentences. 14:22
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Imagine you are sitting in the High Court in Glasgow. You have spent weeks or perhaps even months sitting through a trial for the brutal, calculated and remo...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
Liam Kerr
Con
I will.
John Finnie
Green
I am grateful to the member. I know that he does not like the Parole Board for Scotland, but does he have no confidence at all in its judgment in these matters?
Liam Kerr
Con
I thank Mr Finnie for the intervention. On the contrary, the Parole Board does a very difficult job. The point that I am making, if he will allow me to devel...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr
Con
I ask Mr Johnson to be very quick.
Daniel Johnson
Lab
Is that actually correct? Do judges not have the ability to request an assessment for an order for lifelong restriction, which would do exactly that, if the ...
Liam Kerr
Con
There is an awful lot of misunderstanding in the debate about whether judges in Scotland can hand down a life sentence. It is very disappointing to see such ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam Kerr
Con
If it is brief, Mr Findlay.
Neil Findlay
Lab
Why does Mr Kerr not cut to the chase and tell us the reality? What he probably wants is to bring back the death penalty.
Liam Kerr
Con
I do not thank Mr Findlay for wasting my time with his intervention. Of course I do not think that, Mr Findlay; just sit down. Some people accept that we do...
The Minister for Community Safety (Ash Denham)
SNP
One of the most difficult and important decisions that anyone working in our criminal justice system can face is that which is faced by High Court judges who...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
The proposed bill is a meaningless stunt. The Tories argue that it would be another tool in the sentencing box for judges, but, if that is an attempt to make...
Liam Kerr
Con
I do not doubt that Pauline McNeill’s point will be picked up in the closing speeches. We are not compromising the independence of the judiciary at all—not o...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
I will deal with the member’s point when I outline what I think would be the right way forward for guidelines and sentencing. The proposed bill also states ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call John Finnie to open for the Green Party. 14:41
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Green
Liam Kerr was with me at this morning’s Justice Committee meeting, in which we discussed the presumption against short sentences. The committee is deliberati...
Liam Kerr
Con
To answer those points, I can tell John Finnie that the proposal is not a stunt, because I have been working on it for the guts of the past two years. A stun...
John Finnie
Green
Of course, I acknowledge the work that goes into a member’s bill. Again, Liam Kerr had the good grace to say that someone being sentenced for 37 years has be...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Is it Mr Finnie’s view that the vast prison population will always be subject to rehabilitation and will never present a danger to the public? We are targeti...
John Finnie
Green
Mrs Mitchell identifies a group of individuals—fortunately, it is a small group—for whom provisions are already in place: they are unlikely to be given parol...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I call Liam McArthur to open for the Liberal Democrats. 14:47
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
Even after Liam Kerr’s performance this afternoon, I firmly believe that, when it comes to justice, his instincts are broadly liberal. I see him more in the ...
Liam Kerr
Con
I do not recognise Mr McArthur’s characterisation. The motion, which I have made very short and to the point, is clear: Scotland’s judges should have the pow...
Liam McArthur
LD
As I have made abundantly clear, I do not agree. In sentencing, a judge will set a punishment part, which is the minimum term that must be spent in prison. ...
Liam Kerr
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Liam McArthur
LD
No, thank you. We also need to keep under review the sentencing options that are available to our courts, although the process for doing so is the one that ...