Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 01 May 2019
01 May 2019 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Subject Choice
To be technically correct, there is a relationship between the numbers and the choices—of course there must be. I am about to come on to the question of the breadth of choice, to which due justice was not given in Liz Smith’s speech.
When I wrote to the convener of the Education and Skills Committee in October last year, I was clear that any comparison of the current and previous systems needs to take into account the fundamental differences between curriculum design before and after the introduction of curriculum for excellence. Liz Smith did not refer to the fact that, in the broad general education phase, young people are entitled to study a wide range of subjects to a much deeper level, across the eight curricular areas, without the pressure of taking qualifications. That broad experience—which extends into S3, not S2—is one of the key differences that ensures that breadth is not lost. In the senior phase, young people have the opportunity to acquire a range of qualifications and awards over a three-year period—not a one-year period in S4.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani)
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-17091, in the name of Liz Smith, on subject choice. 14:43
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I open the debate by reiterating our belief on the Conservative benches that Scottish education should be based on excellence and equity and that it can once...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney)
SNP
Does Liz Smith not understand the inherent contradiction in that last remark? At the same time as welcoming the fact that other curriculum choices and offeri...
Liz Smith
Con
There is no contradiction whatever in what I said because, as the Education and Skills Committee was reminded this morning, the critical issue is not about t...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
I am slightly puzzled. Liz Smith seems to be arguing, on the one hand, for more consistency at a national level and, on the other, for more autonomy for indi...
Liz Smith
Con
Yes. The fundamental principles of the curriculum for excellence have not allowed the two to match up. Of course, we need consistency and core curricular sub...
John Swinney
SNP
I do not understand a fundamental point about the Conservatives’ position. I agree with the Conservatives that schools should have much more discretion over ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
I can allow you a little extra time, Ms Smith.
Liz Smith
Con
I will give the cabinet secretary the example that Terry Lanagan of the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland gave us. Tavish Scott asked if it w...
John Swinney
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith
Con
Sorry, no—I have taken quite a lot of interventions. There is a significant issue for the traditional value and ethos of the Scottish curriculum—namely, hav...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney)
SNP
The purpose of curriculum for excellence is to provide young people with the skills, knowledge and experiences that will prepare them for life beyond school ...
Liz Smith
Con
It is not all about numbers, but about the nature of the choices that young people are afforded. That is the key point.
John Swinney
SNP
To be technically correct, there is a relationship between the numbers and the choices—of course there must be. I am about to come on to the question of the ...
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Con
I understand the point that the cabinet secretary is trying to make, but does he recognise that if pupils drop subjects in S4—particularly modern languages a...
John Swinney
SNP
I do not accept that that is pupils’ experience. Mr Mundell’s question suggests that when a young person leaves the broad general education phase they dispen...
John Swinney
SNP
If Liz Smith will forgive me, I will not take her intervention, because I still have a lot of ground to cover. Focusing on the numbers of qualifications tha...
Oliver Mundell
Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
John Swinney
SNP
If Mr Mundell will forgive me, I will not. I still have some detail to cover. Work-based provision for young people in the senior phase is growing. The prop...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary confirm that he will do an analysis of what those positive destinations are? Far too often, they consist of insecure work, zero-ho...
John Swinney
SNP
I will be very happy to explore the substance behind the figures, but we should recognise the fact that young people are leaving school with more qualificati...
Oliver Mundell
Con
You have dismissed it out of hand.
John Swinney
SNP
No. It has been disputed by academics other than those from whom the committee has heard. It has been disputed not just by me, but by other academics. The c...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green)
Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention on that point?
John Swinney
SNP
I will.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame)
SNP
It will have to be brief. You have got only about a minute more, cabinet secretary.
Ross Greer
Green
I will be very brief. Does the cabinet secretary accept that if we spent more time debating education in Government time, the issue, which has been in the pu...
John Swinney
SNP
What I cannot understand is why, given that we have an Education and Skills Committee process under way that is supposed take in excess of 20 hours to consid...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
SNP
Cabinet secretary—Interruption. I am losing my voice.
John Swinney
SNP
I move amendment S5M-17091.4, to leave out from “the delivery of the new curriculum” to end and insert: “it is necessary to be assured that this is the case...