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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 November 2017

02 Nov 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Inclusive Education

Presiding Officer, you will find this hard to believe, but I started school in 1972—and yes, the years have been kind. I am very fortunate that where we lived, here in Edinburgh, became the centre for many people from Scotland and the north of England who had upper and lower limb deficiencies. The Princess Margaret Rose orthopaedic hospital set up a special centre so, over the holiday period, many of us got together to get the extra help that was required. Looking back, I think that I was the only child of that age there who went to a mainstream school. Everyone else went to a special needs school. I was very fortunate that my parents chose to mainstream me and I was fortunate to go to an independent school here in Edinburgh.

I think that we have to set this debate in that historical context and recognise how far we have come—as a civic society, as politicians, and as educationists. There are many lessons that we need to learn and many of them have been highlighted by others today, but we have come a long way. We need to be encouraged by that. We are on a journey—the journey has taken us this far and we need to go further.

In the time that I have this afternoon, I would like to make two points about this. I think that the Deputy First Minister picked up this point in his speech and I was grateful that he did. When we talk about mainstreaming and education, we are not simply talking about what happens in lessons in the classroom.

Too often, we concentrate on whether we have the right provision when a child is in English or maths or whatever. That is vitally important and we should not play that down but if we see it as inclusion when somebody is isolated for the rest of their school experience, we are missing the point. What happens in the playground is probably as important, if not more important, as what happens in a primary school lesson. What happens and how a child is treated in the dining room is as important as what happens in the classroom. How we treat children in relation to physical education and other activities is also really important. We have lots of teachers who are able to think outside the box when it comes to such activities.

Speaking from my own experience, I was unable to participate in football, rugby or cricket as a player, but the school realised that I would be able to umpire, touch judge, or score the cricket matches. I was included in a way that I was able to benefit from and to build friendships on. Sometimes I think that we need to give headteachers and teachers the room to be able to think outside what they normally do so that a child always feels included. I fully agree with the comments made by Jackie Baillie and Tavish Scott regarding the support that we need to give our teachers and support teachers in that regard.

My other point is about the postcode lottery—or, to put it another way, the parentcode lottery. Although we can see that the presumption is for mainstreaming, we also know—and I think that the Scottish Government agrees—that the best interests of some children will be served not in a mainstream setting but in a school that meets their needs in certain ways.

What has surprised me, both from when I was a councillor on the City of Edinburgh Council and from my postbag as a regional MSP, is that, if those who want to choose for their children not to be mainstreamed but to go to a different type of school shout loudest—and, let us be honest, if they are middle class—they are far more likely to get a place in that school than others from the rest of our society. There is a challenge for local authorities and for us as politicians here to ensure that those who come from vulnerable backgrounds, whether that is economic, educational or family related, have the same opportunities as those like me who come from a privileged, middle-class background.

We have to be careful to treat every child as an individual. We have a presumption of mainstreaming, which I support fully and from which I benefited, but there will be times when it is not right for a child to be mainstreamed. As my colleague Liz Smith said, we must protect those schools that are providing those excellent services, both financially and in the way in which we speak about them, in the right way.

I, too, thank Enable for its report and the work that it is doing in this area. This has been a positive debate, and there is agreement. I would encourage us all: we are on a journey, we are perhaps halfway there, and we need to keep going in a cross-party spirit.

15:47  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08558, in the name of John Swinney, on the presumption of mainstreaming.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
A commitment to and belief in inclusive education have underpinned the approach to education policy and legislation in the Scottish Parliament since 2000. Th...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to debate this issue, and I warmly welcome the Scottish Government initiatives that have been announced this afternoon. W...
John Swinney SNP
Just for completeness, on Liz Smith’s analysis of the statistics, does she accept that, within the much expanded number of young people identified with speci...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I absolutely accept that, and I hope that we can make progress exactly on the accuracy of the data and its relevant application. When the Education and ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right to place today’s consultation in the context of the development of the policy and legislative framework on disabili...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Mark McDonald) SNP
I hear the point that Mr Gray is making, but he will have heard the Deputy First Minister highlight the significant improvement that there has been in outcom...
Iain Gray Lab
That is very much to the credit of our teachers and additional support needs workers who remain in the system. However, we cannot ignore the fact that, as En...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I remind members that I am the parliamentary liaison officer for the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills. As we have heard, the presumption of mainst...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I apologise to you, Presiding Officer, and to members in the chamber, because I must leave early tonight to catch the evening plane home. Tomorrow, one of t...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I have a very strong constituency interest in this area, because I am working with a number of families with children of primary school age who are on the au...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
On that final, final, final point, I call Oliver Mundell. 15:22
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
On this occasion, I would have been quite happy to give Bob Doris my six minutes because he is making the same points that I hear about in my constituency ma...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I warmly welcome the opportunity to discuss mainstreaming in education in the chamber this afternoon. It was of course a Labour Scottish Government that intr...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I am glad to be part of this debate for a number of reasons that will become clear as my speech progresses. I was pleased to hear from the Deputy First Mini...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, you will find this hard to believe, but I started school in 1972—and yes, the years have been kind. I am very fortunate that where we live...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
In March, I led a members’ business debate on the subject of the presumption of mainstreaming, as addressed in the excellent Enable Scotland report “#IncludE...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Delivering an inclusive educational environmental for all speaks directly to the kind of society that we aspire to be. As other members, including Jenny Gilr...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate, as the presumption of mainstreaming has been a topic that has come up a fair number of times with my cons...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Mason. I call Monica Lennon, to be followed by Ruth Maguire. You can have an extra 30 or 40 seconds. Isn’t that exciting? 16:06
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
You have made my day, Presiding Officer. As many MSPs from across Parliament have, I have been raising concerns with the Scottish Government about the decli...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Ruth Maguire also has a little extra time. 16:13
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
The commitment of Parliament to delivering inclusive education is not in doubt. However, as MSPs—and as parents, friends and family members—we are all aware ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Deciding the best route for any child through education will always be tough. For every change in educational thought there will always be a question mark ov...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I support the motion and congratulate the Parliament and all Administrations on the presumption of mainstreaming. All children and young people are entitled...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
There was much in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks with which we can all agree. He was absolutely right to emphasise the continuity of this Parliament...
John Swinney SNP
That is a big breakthrough. Laughter.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I know. I thought that the cabinet secretary would think so. Labour agrees with and supports much of what is before us today, and we will vote accordingly. ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Michelle Ballantyne to close for the Conservatives. You have a generous nine minutes. 16:39
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests, as I am the former head of service of Stable Life, a charity that works with children and young peo...