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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 March 2017

08 Mar 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Education

Every council in the country has laboured under the strain of the £1.5 billion of cuts that local government has suffered in the past few years.

Mr Swinney sometimes likes to accuse us of being to blame for the shortage and of talking teachers down, but I am a teacher to trade and members will not catch me talking teachers down. I know that a fully trained professional teaching force has always been the greatest strength of our schools, and I know that, despite the cuts, our teachers deliver remarkable success and inspire our children every day of the week. We should thank them, but if we keep cutting their number, those thanks are worthless.

We pay teachers less than similar countries do; we provide them with less preparation time, fewer support staff and fewer resources than other countries do; we put them in front of bigger classes than pretty well every other country in the developed world; and then we wonder why we cannot recruit enough of them. Thanking teachers means nothing unless we listen to their concerns.

The Parliament’s Education and Skills Committee has done just that. It has listened to teachers, who told it that they had lost confidence in the Scottish Qualifications Authority and Education Scotland and that reductions in additional support staff were making life difficult. However, the education secretary rubbished the committee’s work. He said that it was not a proper sample, and then he told the committee that the valid view was what teachers told him when he visited schools. I am reminded of the old chestnut about the Queen thinking that the world permanently smells of fresh paint.

Now we hear that the cabinet secretary has delayed his governance reforms, but, again, he is not listening. The responses to the review tell him that its proposed reforms miss the point. The Educational Institute of Scotland, which represents teachers, said:

“The greatest barrier is and has been the imposition of austerity driven budgets and the underfunding of the Scottish Education system over the past period.”

It is not just teachers; a group of parents from Aberdeen said:

“Local council budgets have been reduced year on year for a considerable number of years. Teacher shortages impact the ability to deliver excellence and equity for all”.

Dundee City Council, which is run by the SNP, said:

“The real barriers have been imposed on councils over recent years following a series of past and present reductions to the budget.”

The Royal Society for Edinburgh summed it up neatly when it said:

“it is not clear how the proposed governance changes will lead to improved educational experiences and outcomes”.

Is not the real reason why the Government has delayed its great reforms that the responses are telling it that they are the wrong ones and that what we actually need in our schools is more resources, more teachers and more time?

There is also little or no support for the plans to centralise school budgets. Mr Swinney sometimes asks me whether we support anything that he does. Well, we do: we support the equity fund to close the attainment gap. Why would we not support that? From the moment the attainment fund was introduced, we said that it should be bigger and that it should follow pupils to whichever school they attend. We even argued that entitlement to free school meals is the best proxy for poverty and that funds should go direct to headteachers. The Government clearly agreed, because that is what it has done.

However, we cannot ignore the fact that that £120 million is set against cuts of £170 million to councils’ core budgets, nor can we ignore the fact that the devolution of that £120 million of funding is set against the removal of core school budgets from local control and their being set centrally by a formula. In other words, £120 million has been devolved and £4 billion has been centralised. To paraphrase the First Minister, only in the world of the SNP can that be called decentralisation and not centralisation.

There is a primary school in my constituency with more than 1,000 pupils—it is one of the biggest in the country—while others just down the road have fewer than 20. The idea that some algorithm at Victoria Quay will know enough about those schools and the communities that they serve to make a rational decision on their budgets is ridiculous. To remove local control of their budgets does not serve the interests of the parents, the schools or the teachers any more than it serves their interests to cut teacher numbers, reduce support staff and increase class sizes.

Our schools need reform, but we need reforms that take teachers and parents with us. We have tried to maintain an open mind on the education secretary’s core reform of national standardised assessments, but he has failed to take teachers with him. That is why the vast majority of councils are saying that they are going to use those assessments on top of what they did before, which will increase workload and testing. It is also why we have seen the league tables that we were promised we would not see—and the defence that the Scottish Government publishes not the league tables but just the numbers, which someone can then put in order, is just ridiculous.

Our schools need reform. The new exams need to be reformed because they are narrowing the curriculum and reducing attainment. Local charging for exam re-marks needs to be reformed—indeed, it should end. The senior phase needs reform backed by a comprehensive career guidance system, and achievement could be universally acknowledged, maybe through a Scottish graduation certificate. Every school should have a counselling service available to it, and a breakfast club, and there should be more collaboration between schools and within and across education authorities.

The SQA certainly needs to be reformed, refocused and resourced; the inspectorate should be independent again; and Education Scotland should serve teachers and not ministers. If it was regionalised, perhaps it could provide the strengthened “middle” that the OECD has suggested that we need. Above all, our schools need more teachers with more support, more time and more resources to do the job that they do so well. That is the core reform, and failure to deliver it is the defining characteristic of the SNP’s decade in charge of education.

The cabinet secretary should not delay his reform programme. He should ditch it now and start to invest properly in schools. That is what parents, teachers and SNP councillors tell him, too.

I move,

That the Parliament notes the evidence submitted to the Education and Skills Committee that many teachers have lost confidence in Education Scotland and the SQA; notes Scottish Government figures, which show falling numbers of teachers and support staff; is disappointed in the results of the OECD’s PISA worldwide survey, which show a decline in reading, maths and science scores in Scotland in both absolute and relative terms; notes a number of significant responses to the Scottish Government review of the governance of schools, which question its thrust and direction, and believes that its stewardship of education is failing teachers, parents and pupils.

14:56  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-04456, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Scottish Government and education: 10 years of letting down teach...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Too often, when we debate education in general and schools in particular, we forget the historical context. The truth is that the responsibility of this Parl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I ask Mr Sarwar and Mr Dornan not to have a discussion across the chamber.
Iain Gray Lab
We have aspired to have the best schools that we can imagine. Now, it seems that the Government’s benchmark is to be less bad than England. Is that really th...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I hear what the member says, so let us talk about the situation in Scotland. Is he aware that West Dunbartonshire Council sought to cut the school week by ha...
Iain Gray Lab
To tell the truth, when it comes to cutting the school week, what I remember best is the massive public meeting in Renfrewshire when the council there was ru...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Mark McDonald) SNP
Iain Gray cites teacher shortages. Does he feel that it is sensible for Labour-led Aberdeen City Council to have written out to teachers to offer them volunt...
Iain Gray Lab
Every council in the country has laboured under the strain of the £1.5 billion of cuts that local government has suffered in the past few years. Mr Swinney ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Iain Gray said that it is “right and reasonable” to hold the Government to account. That is, of course, correct. The Government is here to be held to account...
Iain Gray Lab
I regularly go to all those high schools, and what they tell me is that they ain’t got enough teachers and cannot recruit teachers for the vacancies that the...
John Swinney SNP
What those schools will also tell Mr Gray—Interruption. Lewis Macdonald is shouting that I should answer the point. I have answered in my amendment the point...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney mentioned teacher training and recruitment. That is precisely the crisis that local authorities across the north of Scotland face. Mr Swinney refe...
John Swinney SNP
We have introduced 11 new mechanisms to encourage people to join the teaching profession, we increased postgraduate diploma in education intake by 19 per cen...
Iain Gray Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
Hold on a second. We have had a 30 per cent increase in higher passes since 2007, an increase to 93.3 per cent in positive destinations being achieved by yo...
Iain Gray Lab
Mr Swinney must acknowledge that I did celebrate successes in education in my speech. The point that he misses is that the motion is about his and his Govern...
John Swinney SNP
I will go through them again in case Mr Gray did not hear. Since 2007, when this Government came to office, we have had a 30 per cent increase in the higher ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Just a wee minute. I would like to hear all speeches, please, thank you.
John Swinney SNP
Yes—those achievements have been by the young people of Scotland, but they have done that in an education system over which this Government has been presidin...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but the cabinet secretary is in his last minute.
John Swinney SNP
Okay, Presiding Officer. I will conclude by outlining some of the measures that the Government is taking to address the issues. The Government has made avai...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Liz Smith. You have seven minutes, please. 14:28
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will start on what I hope is a constructive note, because I think that some of Mr Gray’s analysis is correct, and that some of the cabinet secretary’s anal...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
Of course.
Neil Findlay Lab
Does Liz Smith agree that closure of the undergraduate primary teaching degree course at the University of Edinburgh will be a further hindrance to recruitin...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I agree. There are serious concerns about that closure, so it must be looked at. I know that the cabinet secretary has initiated a new discussion about ...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is in her last minute.