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Official Report

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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.

Speaker unknown Chamber

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote has been recorded.

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote will be recorded.

Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Okay, thank you.

Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber

My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The question on the motion will be put at decision time.

Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

Go on—why not?

The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...

Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.

David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...

Bob Doris SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

We move to the open debate.15:58

Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47

Michael Marra Lab Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...

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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 18 January 2017

18 Jan 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament

Item of business

Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Mountain, Edward Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I am sorry, but I am very pushed for time, and I know that the member has intervened already.

As a Tory, I am putting myself in a dangerous position by quoting Professor Jim Hunter not just once but for a second time. Members must understand that, if somebody is right, I will stand with them. We should not allow the Government to act further and remove the board, making HIE purely a delivery agency.

We accept, and I think I have proved, that, in local situations, success is more likely if the decision is kept local. Who can deny that? The examples that I have given prove it. That is why the board needs to be local, not situated elsewhere in Scotland.

As Donald Cameron pointed out, we have all been told by the Scottish Government that there has been plenty of support for its plan to scrap the HIE board and to subsume it within a national body. The problem is that we still have not heard who supports that. Furthermore, I do not understand how the Cabinet can interpret as a signal to break up HIE the First Minister saying that

“Highlands and Islands Enterprise does a fantastic job”.—[Official Report, 29 September 2016; c 15.]

Before l close, I briefly mention the compromise by the MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber, Ian Blackford, on how to dilute the dissent to the Government’s suggestions. We have now done that—I have given it the attention it deserves—so let us move on.

In summary, I say to the Government: “Listen to what is being said to you. HIE is not broken. It works. Stop trying to break it.”

15:39

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP

The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-03438, in the name of Donald Cameron, on retaining the Highlands and Islands Enterprise board. I call Mr...

Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con

At the outset of the debate, it is worth casting our minds back some 50 or so years to 1965, when Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s predecessor, the Highlan...

Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP

Will the member take an intervention?

Donald Cameron Con

I do not have time, I am afraid. I defy anyone to find an organisation that supports the proposal. Keith Brown revealed last month at the Economy, Jobs and ...

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work (Keith Brown) SNP

Will the member take an intervention?

Donald Cameron Con

I do not have time. The minister will have time to respond in his speech. The narrative of centralisation is fixed and unrelenting. A Convention of Scottish...

The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP

I call Keith Brown to speak to and move amendment S5M-03438.2. You have up to six minutes, please, cabinet secretary. 15:23

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work (Keith Brown) SNP

First, I make it clear that, where possible, I fully intend to listen to the points that have been made. I would like to engage and it might have helped in t...

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

Will the minister take an intervention?

Keith Brown SNP

I am sorry, but are we not in the pattern of not taking interventions? I recognise Liz Smith’s interest, though, so I will take her intervention.

Liz Smith Con

I thank the cabinet secretary for doing so. On the rationale for change, will he spell out whether he has had any communications from the four boards that he...

Keith Brown SNP

It would take me some time to recite all the information that is contained in the letters, but I have had various correspondence from the boards. As you woul...

Gail Ross (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) SNP

SNP Highlands and Islands members met the cabinet secretary several months ago to discuss this very topic. Will he now commit to being open minded about reta...

Keith Brown SNP

In addition to the points that Gail Ross, Kate Forbes, Richard Lochhead and others have made to me about what the structure beneath the strategic board shoul...

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab

I welcome the debate and I support the motion. The Highlands and Islands Development Board and Highlands and Islands Enterprise have, between them, more than...

Kate Forbes SNP

Will the member take an intervention?

Rhoda Grant Lab

Let me make some progress. In response, Keith Brown tried to appease by saying that he expects there to be strong Highland representation on the new single ...

Kate Forbes SNP

Does the member accept that only phase 1 of the review has been published and that the reason why we do not have all the details is that we await phase 2? Do...

Rhoda Grant Lab

We know now that the board of HIE is going to be dismantled, which we did not know at the time of that vote. The announcement of that proposal was sneaked ou...

The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP

We now move to the open speeches. We are extremely tight for time. In order not to jeopardise the next debate, I ask all speakers to aim for three and a half...

Edward Mountain (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con

I will try to cut down my time to meet your deadline, Presiding Officer. When I started working in Inverness in 1995, I had little knowledge of HIE. In fac...

Kate Forbes SNP

Will the member take an intervention?

Edward Mountain Con

I am sorry, but I am very pushed for time, and I know that the member has intervened already. As a Tory, I am putting myself in a dangerous position by quot...

Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP

Words are so devalued in our political discourse that they are hurled about until the air is so thick with exaggeration, hyperbole and superlatives that it i...

Rhoda Grant Lab

Will the member take an intervention?

Kate Forbes SNP

Rhoda Grant Lab

Is the member actually saying that the board has no purpose at all? Why are we setting up an overreaching board if that is the case?

Kate Forbes SNP

That is a good point, and a fair one. I think that the board has an important role to play. Over the past few years we have seen that our economy is changing...

David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab

Presiding Officer, “It has never been more important than today that all the country’s resources should be fully exploited, and the Highlands” and Islands ...

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP

Time is tight. I ask for speeches of up to three and a half minutes, please, or members at the end will lose their speaking time. 15:47