Committee
Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee 24 November 2016
24 Nov 2016 · S5 · Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee
Item of business
“Maintaining Scotland’s roads: A follow-up report”
Graeme Greenhill
Watch on SPTV
There are certainly times when surface dressing, as it is called—basically just replacing the surface—represents value for money. However, there is a risk that, if that is done instead of more wholesale reconstruction, it is potentially storing problems for the future, and there might well be a higher bill in the longer term as a result. It is fair to say that all the roads authorities recognise that as an issue and a risk, but there is clearly a difference between recognising a risk and doing something about it. A good example of that might be found in paragraph 70 on page 33 of the report, where we talk about Aberdeen City Council. Aberdeen City Council has been able to increase the proportion of roads in acceptable condition at lower cost through increased efficiencies and innovation, which we would be 100 per cent behind. Equally, it has taken a conscious decision to concentrate on surface dressing and not do more involved and more detailed reconstruction work. It is interesting that exhibit 10 on page 24 says that Aberdeen City Council has recognised that, if it wants to maintain its roads in the current condition, it will have to increase how much money it spends on roads maintenance. For us, that emphasises the importance of having good-quality information to allow elected members and ministers to make informed decisions as to how much they want to spend on roads maintenance. That good-quality information would identify options; how much acceptable road condition might be expected from certain levels of spend; what might be the benefits of spending more than that level of spend; and what might be the consequences of spending less than that level of spend. Councils also need good-quality information on community engagement and user views, because all the surveyed work that councils and Transport Scotland carry out indicates that road condition is of vital importance to the general public. 10:15
In the same item of business
The Convener
Lab
We move to item 5, which is our evidence session on “Maintaining Scotland’s Roads: A follow-up report”. I welcome to the meeting Fraser McKinlay, the directo...
Fraser McKinlay (Audit Scotland)
Thank you, convener. Good morning, members. This report on maintaining Scotland’s roads is a joint report by the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission...
The Convener
Lab
Thank you very much, Mr McKinlay.
Alex Neil
SNP
Am I right in saying that the reduction in budget and the reduction in the percentage of roads in satisfactory condition are broadly the same? If so, that wo...
Fraser McKinlay
I will check with the team, Mr Neil, but I think the picture is slightly different depending on whether you are looking at local or national roads. The condi...
Graeme Greenhill (Audit Scotland)
I think that you are broadly correct in percentage terms. The condition of trunk roads declined from 90 per cent being in acceptable condition in 2011-12 to ...
Alex Neil
SNP
You draw attention to the increasing use of fairly temporary measures, particularly materials. Are we cutting off our nose to spite our face? You say in para...
Graeme Greenhill
There are certainly times when surface dressing, as it is called—basically just replacing the surface—represents value for money. However, there is a risk th...
Alex Neil
SNP
Not just in this period but previously, the overall performance of the local authority sector has been substantially below what has been expected. Sixty-thre...
Fraser McKinlay
Indeed, Mr Neil, and we are aware of that experience in Ayrshire. I guess that it is a good wee example of the point I was going to start with. Although we a...
Alex Neil
SNP
Have you done any collaborative analysis of those areas where there is already established collaborative working and the rest, where there is not, to see whe...
Fraser McKinlay
We have not yet, partly because the collaborative arrangements are still relatively new, with the possible exception of the Tayside contracts. That is a slig...
Alex Neil
SNP
Thank you.
Colin Beattie
SNP
There are one or two random items in the report that I want to get a bit more information on. We have touched on the contracts, and I am looking at paragraph...
Shelagh Stewart (Audit Scotland)
Yes. In that paragraph, we draw attention to the shift to the 4G contracts. With the introduction of the new contract framework, the expectations around perf...
Colin Beattie
SNP
Okay. One thing that really jumps out at me in the report relates to the performance of councils. Although they have maintained the level of roads in accepta...
Fraser McKinlay
As you say, one of the striking things about the report is the variation between councils. We have not done a huge amount of in-depth analysis, council by co...
Graeme Greenhill
Exhibit 2 on page 14 gives you that spread of council performance across individual councils. We are not necessarily saying that Argyll and Bute Council, on ...
Colin Beattie
SNP
I see your comments in paragraph 99 on the question of trunk roads being included in the regional groupings. Do you feel that we are close to that, or is it ...
Graeme Greenhill
I think that it is a work in progress. As you will have seen from the letter that Roy Brannen, the chief executive of Transport Scotland, wrote to the commit...
Colin Beattie
SNP
It is quite clear that there are a number of different models in place for maintaining roads, whether there is subcontracting or whether the councils are doi...
Graeme Greenhill
Do you mean to bring it all together into a single roads maintenance authority that would be responsible for all roads maintenance?
Colin Beattie
SNP
That would be wonderful.
Graeme Greenhill
Theoretically, it could be done, although there are obvious challenges associated with that. Paragraph 95 of the report, on page 41, gives an indication of s...
Fraser McKinlay
For me, as much as a question of whether it is feasible, it is a question of whether that is who you would want to do the work. I would make some connection ...
Colin Beattie
SNP
I was quite intrigued by paragraphs 52 and 53, which show that we are probably marginally better than our colleagues south of the border. However, what reall...
Fraser McKinlay
We have not done the work to let me say one way or the other, Mr Beattie. As far as we can tell, a policy choice was made. The Government at Westminster deci...
Colin Beattie
SNP
Okay.
The Convener
Lab
I refer you to exhibit 5 on page 17, which is about the overall performance of trunk road operating companies. Please correct me if I am wrong, but looking a...
Shelagh Stewart
Exhibit 5 shows the performance of all four of the regional operating companies, which are assessed individually in the annual PAGplus reports. However, they...