Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2016
10 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Lobbying (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
—assert the fact that it would not be a disproportionate burden to extend the definition in the way that Patricia Ferguson’s amendment suggests.
I thank George Adam for lodging amendment 23 and the Law Society of Scotland for raising the matter that it deals with. The Government will support the amendment, which makes it clear that the definition of “regulated lobbying” includes methods of communication that are used as alternatives to the spoken word—I think that deals with Patrick Harvie’s point—and, very importantly, recognises that British Sign Language is in itself a language.
I am clear that British Sign Language and other such methods of communication, such as those used by the deafblind community, whether face to face or through an interpreter, should be included within the definition of regulated lobbying. This amendment will helpfully put that beyond doubt.
In conclusion, I ask the Parliament to oppose Patricia Ferguson’s amendments 12, 15 and 14, and I invite the Parliament to agree to George Adam’s amendment 23.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Lobbying (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the bill as amended at ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Group 1 is on lobbying: definition. Amendment 1, in the name of Neil Findlay, is the only amendment in the group.
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
The bill is in danger of being undermined from the outset by a lack of definition of what we are talking about when we discuss lobbying. The bill as it stand...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
I understand the principle underlying what Mr Findlay is seeking to do. However, I am left somewhat unclear about what the phrase “in a professional capacity...
Neil Findlay
Lab
I think that the definition as given is much clearer than the lack of definition that we have at the moment. Does the member not agree?
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Of course I do not agree. The definition carries with it the significant danger that, by putting things such as “in a professional capacity” in the amendment...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I think that I will not. We need to make progress.
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
In defence of Neil Findlay’s amendment, it seems reasonable to include a definition of lobbying on the face of the bill. The argument that we have just heard...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick)
SNP
As Neil Findlay described, the aim of amendment 1 is to set out in the bill a definition of what lobbying is before the bill moves on to define the scope of ...
Neil Findlay
Lab
As we go through the afternoon Mr FitzPatrick might care to reflect on the words “confusion” and “ambiguity”, because as we go through the bill that is what ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The Parliament is not agreed and there will be a division. As it is the first division of the stage, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 14:06 Meeting s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We move to the division on amendment 1. For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 75, Abstentions 0. Amendment 1 disagreed to. Section 1—Regulated lobbying
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Group 2 is on regulated lobbying: methods of communication. Amendment 12, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, is grouped with amendments 15, 14 and 23.
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
I rise to move amendment 12, speak to amendments 15 and 14, and support George Adam’s amendment 23. The Government bill that the Parliament has before it su...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
I lodged amendment 23 on the back of a recent briefing paper from the Law Society of Scotland. The Law Society noted that, although section 1 refers to commu...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Patricia Ferguson’s quotation from the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee’s stage 1 report was perfectly proper, but it might be as well...
Patrick Harvie
Green
I am struggling to resist the temptation to use some of the few signs that I know. I very much welcome George Adam’s amendment 23, as it is important that w...
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
Patricia Ferguson’s amendments 12, 15 and 14 would substantially broaden the definition of regulated lobbying by including other forms of communication—parti...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
Okay, quickly.
Neil Findlay
Lab
On the subject of clear evidence, what evidence does the minister have, or has he ever had, that face-to-face communication is more effective than any other ...
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
I think that there is evidence, which I will come to later. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please.
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
I think that the important thing is that we need to make sure that the bill is proportionate, and there is no evidence to—Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please.
Joe FitzPatrick
SNP
—assert the fact that it would not be a disproportionate burden to extend the definition in the way that Patricia Ferguson’s amendment suggests. I thank Geo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Thank you, minister. I call Patricia Ferguson to wind up and to indicate whether you intend to press or withdraw, please.