Committee
Environment and Rural Development Committee, 28 Mar 2007
28 Mar 2007 · S2 · Environment and Rural Development Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Inshore Fishing (Prohibited Methods of Fishing) (Firth of Lorn) (No 2) Order 2007 (SSI 2007/240)
Consultation is required under the Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Act 1984. I suppose that we should use the word "consultation" only in the context of the legal requirement that is imposed on us by that act. It is regrettable that we were a little loose in our language and that when we were discussing the matter with potentially affected parties prior to laying the order we said that we were consulting them. That was in no way intended to mislead anyone—it was a fact. However, nine or 12 months ago we were not carrying out a consultation in accordance with the requirements of the 1984 act; what was happening was that, after evaluating the situation and discovering that one party would be singularly affected, we were discussing the matter with the people who were immediately affected. The use of the word "consultation" in that context was unfortunate, but it was never intended to deceive or mislead. As I explained, it took some nine months to obtain the mitigating measures that we thought were essential before we could make the order.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Maureen Macmillan):
Lab
Good morning. I welcome members of the committee, the public and the press to the meeting and remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones so that they ...
The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):
LD
Thank you very much, convener. Alastair Smith is from Scottish Executive Legal and Parliamentary Services, and Frank Strang and Eamon Murphy are from the sea...
The Convener:
Lab
How long do you expect the closure to last? How long will the investigation take?
Ross Finnie:
LD
We have had preliminary discussions with SNH and parties who want to engage with us. The investigation could take up to 18 months to two years. We hope that ...
Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab):
Lab
In the final paragraph of his letter to Fergus Ewing, John Elvidge says:"In this instance, the distinction between consultation prior to the decision to intr...
Ross Finnie:
LD
Consultation is required under the Inshore Fishing (Scotland) Act 1984. I suppose that we should use the word "consultation" only in the context of the legal...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Do you agree that the consultation should have taken place before the order was laid, or before it was insinuated that there would be a closure?
Ross Finnie:
LD
The consultation was on the order. The technical requirement in the 1984 act is for consultation before an order is laid. The discussions that we had were on...
Alastair Smith (Scottish Executive Legal and Parliamentary Services):
The statutory requirement in the 1984 act is that, before making an order, ministers must consult with such bodies as they consider appropriate. On the decis...
Mr McGrigor:
Con
Section 1 of the 1984 act gives the Scottish ministers power to make such orders, but it states that they may do so only after consultation with such bodies ...
Ross Finnie:
LD
Indeed.
Mr McGrigor:
Con
On 26 June, you said:"The Scottish Executive proposes to close part of the Firth of Lorn to scallop dredging on a temporary basis while urgent research is ca...
Ross Finnie:
LD
The letter from Sir John Elvidge, the permanent secretary, to Fergus Ewing has been referred to. On the basis of internal advice, we came to a decision about...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
As the minister knows, I represent the Mallaig area, and a deputation led by John Hermse is here to listen to the debate, such is the importance of the issue...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I do not know about the complainant, but the issue for me starts at the point at which I am asked by the European Commission whether I am satisfied that we h...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Can I carry on, convener? I wish to pursue the point. It is pretty important.
The Convener:
Lab
You may continue if you are brief. Many other members want to ask questions.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
The minister has not disputed that SNH's information shows no evidence of deterioration, as is confirmed in minutes from 4 August. In addition, Mr Bill Turre...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I will deal first with whether a closure is needed. I do not wish to be awkward about this, but it seems to me that there are two ways of asking the question...
Richard Lochhead (Moray) (SNP):
SNP
How long do you estimate the research will take?
Ross Finnie:
LD
As I said in response to the convener, we expect that it might take up to 18 months.
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
You have been dealing with this issue for nine months and the fishermen have been fishing the area for more than 50 years. The committee is receiving conflic...
Ross Finnie:
LD
That is not what I said. Quite explicitly, I said that closure is not related to whether an investigation can be carried out. As Fergus Ewing quite properly ...
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
Why can you not ask Europe to allow you the opportunity to carry out the research to confirm whether closure is required?
Ross Finnie:
LD
Because Europe is already asking us whether we are satisfied that we are meeting the requirements of the habitats directive and the answer to that question i...
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
Are you honestly saying that if you told the European Commission that you are about to conduct research to confirm the status of the Firth of Lorn, it would ...
Ross Finnie:
LD
I am saying that we run a serious risk of putting the cart before the horse and ending up in a position in which we cannot permit activity anywhere—not only ...
Alastair Smith:
I would like to clarify the fact that, under article 6(2) of the habitats directive, a member state has an obligation to take appropriate steps to avoid the ...
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
Why can we not do what other states do and have an on-going debate with Europe about the definition of appropriate steps, while the Executive conducts the re...
Ross Finnie:
LD
We know that there is an inherent risk. As I understand it, the matters specified in the directive include scallop dredging, which is acknowledged as a poten...