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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 December 2015

15 Dec 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Redesigning Primary Care

I associate myself with the cabinet secretary’s comments about Richard Simpson. I hope that he continues to have an active role, and I am sure that he shall. I also praise the extraordinary work that front-line community health and care services professionals do, day in and day out, across Scotland.

The debate is timely. We want to increase the importance of primary health services, which are a valued asset that needs urgent attention. Investment of £40 million under the primary care fund was announced in November 2014, but it took the best part of seven months for words to be put on paper to solidify that action, and it turned out to involve reducing the amount that would be invested in primary care from £40 million in 2015-16 to £16.6 million per year over three years.

However, that aside, it is obvious that the cabinet secretary wants to talk about redesigning primary care for Scotland’s communities. I am sorry that I have to start by being slightly negative, but I will go on to be constructive. Some £26.5 million has been cut from primary medical services since 2009-10, and almost £30 million has been cut from the total spend on GPs in that period. Out-of-hours GP funding was cut from £95.7 million in 2008-09 to less than £80 million in 2013-14. The cabinet secretary provided me with those figures just this month in response to a parliamentary question.

It is clear that a redesign is on the Government’s mind, but I do not want it to be of the wrong kind. One thing that the Government acknowledges is the challenge in recruiting and retaining GPs—a challenge that has been brought on by a lack of investment in primary care—and in establishing the recruitment practices that are needed. The chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners has said:

“There is no question that the consistent underfunding of general practice has contributed to the difficulties the service faces. RCGP has been warning for over two years now of the results of year on year cuts to the percentage share of NHS Scotland funding allocated to the service. General practice, which sees 90% of all patient contact with the NHS, received just 7.6% of the budget. Such imbalance is a plan for failure.”

New figures that are out today show that average GP practice list sizes have increased by 10 per cent since 2007. Perhaps that goes some way towards answering Richard Simpson’s questions on full-time equivalents. I will be interested to see the figures that the cabinet secretary finds. We do not want the Government just to pay lip service.

There continues to be little success in attracting GP trainees in the necessary numbers. I welcome the announcement of 100 more GP training places, but I would like an assurance from the Scottish Government on what plans it has made to fill them. If the current places cannot be filled with GP trainees, as Richard Simpson said, what is the plan for the 100 additional places?

In September, the cabinet secretary told us that only 237 of the 305 GP specialty training posts that were advertised in Scotland in 2015 were filled. Research that was presented in the British Journal of General Practice shows that the majority of GP trainee places were in the least deprived 25 per cent of practices, with the most deprived 25 per cent having just over half that number. In those deprived areas, multimorbidity and premature mortality are real problems, mental health problems are a factor in a third of GP consultations, and funding does not match clinical need.

The general practitioners at the deep end warn that the flat distribution of GP resources in Scotland does not benefit those who most need GP care—that is, the 8 per cent of the Scottish population who live in the most deprived areas. Unless a drastic shift is applied to address inequalities in the resource distribution methods, we will see no change in health inequalities.

I am not saying that we should throw money at the problem and expect solutions to magically appear. A guided and educated approach is needed that takes into account the needs of both practitioners and patients. The call for a fully resourced workforce that works in the right way and in the right place is also backed by the Royal College of Nursing and the out-of-hours primary care review. As the cabinet secretary will be aware, recommendation 8 in that review’s report states:

“A national primary care workforce plan should be developed and implemented without delay”.

The redesign of primary care for Scotland’s communities must be precisely that—a redesign for the communities. Next year, we face a project of an enormous scale—the integration of health and social services, which will jointly manage £8 billion-worth of assets and resources. We need a redesign that takes into account the localisation of services and the ability of integration authorities to plan their workforce needs and be supported while they do so. The Ritchie report pointed out that

“Robust workforce planning ... needs to be urgently replicated at NHS Board”

and integration authority level

“to secure a sustainable and empowered multidisciplinary workforce”.

The Scottish Government has to redesign services to meet the needs of the populations in different communities across Scotland. Unless change happens in a way that enables and empowers practitioners to plan for their patients, we will see little progress on reducing inequalities and putting our NHS on the right footing for progress. We need a strong, future-proofed NHS.

I move amendment S4M-15172.1, to leave out from “supports the current work” to end and insert:

“considers that there is a GP crisis, caused in part by the failure of the Scottish Government to invest in primary care; notes that real-terms spending on GP services has fallen year on year since 2009-10, decreasing from £888 million to £858 million in 2013-14; understands that funding pressures are particularly acute in practices serving the most deprived areas, which receive less funding per patient than average, despite the vital role that they can play in reducing health inequalities; notes that the Royal College of General Practitioners has stated that ‘there is no question that the consistent underfunding of general practice has contributed to the difficulties the service faces’ and that the body has previously warned there will be a shortfall of up to 740 GPs by 2020; understands that, of the 305 GP speciality training posts advertised in Scotland in 2015, only 237 were filled, and therefore calls on the Scottish Government to explain how its increasing the number of posts available to 400 will increase uptake and lead to more GPs in local practices; welcomes Sir Lewis Ritchie’s review of out-of-hours primary care and considers that it is an important contribution to the debate on how best to deliver these vital services, and supports efforts to reduce bureaucracy through the new GP contract for Scotland from 2017 in order to give GPs more time with their patients to provide quality care.”

15:05  
References in this contribution

Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15172, in the name of Shona Robison, on redesigning primary care for Scotland’s communities. 14:33
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
I am pleased to be opening this afternoon’s debate. I want to take the opportunity to describe my longer-term vision for primary care, building on Sir Lewis ...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the publication of those figures today, but it is regrettable that we do not have the full-time equivalent numbers. The headcount does not reflect ...
Shona Robison SNP
No, but a survey will take place that I think will provide more in-depth analysis of some of the data to which Richard Simpson refers. I accept that there a...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I draw members’ attention to my declaration of interests as a member of the BMA and a fellow of the Royal College of General Practitioners. The debate is we...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I can give you an extra minute or so.
Dr Simpson Lab
That is kind of you—thank you very much. Such practice or locality groups are variously referred to in different documents as clusters, networks, federation...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I need you to close now please, Dr Simpson.
Dr Simpson Lab
Finally, I hope that the Government will publish a set of principles that it seeks to use to underpin any new contract. The task is daunting but, if we all w...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
I associate myself with the cabinet secretary’s comments about Richard Simpson. I hope that he continues to have an active role, and I am sure that he shall....
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Like the cabinet secretary, I begin by paying tribute to the staff who will be working extremely hard over the winter and the Christmas season. As I noted in...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I start, as some other members have, by thanking the staff who work in our health service. I speak as someone who represents fairly widely-flung communities ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Could you draw to a close please?
Nigel Don SNP
All the Government has to do is provide those people with an opportunity to contribute. Our job is to make sure that they can do so effectively by ensuring t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. I am afraid that there is not a lot of time in hand this afternoon, so I ask members to keep to six minutes. 15:18
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I put on record my appreciation for the hard work and dedication of GPs. We as a society depend on their skills, experience, hard work and sense of duty to o...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in this important debate. Like Jackson Carlaw, I thank the Scottish Government for the content of the motion, particular...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Sandra White SNP
No, I am sorry, but I will not take an intervention. When we look at primary care and integration, will we have data from each local authority to show that...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The report from Professor Sir Lewis Ritchie is a good one, which makes sensible points about the reform of out-of-hours primary practice. I agree with much ...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
We all know that there are significant challenges to delivering healthcare, given the demographic trends that present us with an ever ageing and increasingly...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased that we are being given the opportunity today to discuss the way forward for primary care in Scotland. Throughout my time in Parliament, we have...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this important debate. I know from the opposition parties’ amendments that the core of their argument seems to be about allocation o...
Jim Hume LD
Will Mike MacKenzie take an intervention?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No, thank you.
Jackson Carlaw Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No, thank you.
Mike MacKenzie SNP
However, thanks to the democratic deficit in our constitutional arrangements—Smith or no Smith, Scotland act or no Scotland act—we are stuck with austerity. ...
Jackson Carlaw Con
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether Mike MacKenzie intends to address himself to the terms of the motion that is before us for debate th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
As Mr Carlaw knows, that is not a point of order. However, the point has been made.