Committee
Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee 29 September 2015
29 Sep 2015 · S4 · Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee
Item of business
Succession (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I would be grateful if I could make a very brief statement, convener. I thank the committee for inviting me to give evidence this morning. I welcome the recognition that the bill will make the law on succession fairer and more consistent, and that such reform is perhaps overdue. The committee is well aware of our approach to this work. Progressing the law in two separate and consecutive pieces of legislation has the benefits of not delaying a set of uncontentious reforms any further, and of ensuring that there can be the level of scrutiny that the bill deserves. We feel that the advantages of that approach have been recognised by other witnesses. That said, progressing two pieces of legislation in quick succession raises the question of consolidation; we will certainly consider that in the context of any future bill in this area. I have been very impressed by the committee’s careful questioning, which has helpfully teased out a number of issues, particularly the inclusion of a guardian in the provisions in section 1; some jurisdictional matters; clarity around the term “uncertainty” in relation to the survivorship provisions; and the question whether section 3, which relates to rectification of a will, should be extended to home-made wills. On the last question, I have to confess that I had been unaware of the range and extent of the do-it-yourself will market and the growth in online templates. There are also differences in the services that such websites offer, including in whether they have a solicitor who ultimately drafts the will. It is therefore only right, as the committee has highlighted, that we take account of technological changes when we formulate policy. Similarly, it has been very interesting to follow the debates on some of the terminology. I mentioned the term “uncertainty”. Although I am clear that Lord Wheatley has helpfully put the term beyond doubt, I very much agree with the committee’s sentiment that legislation should not just be for those who are legally qualified and that we need to sense-check things. In that regard at least, I think that there is clarity about “uncertainty”—if that does not confuse matters—and that the concept is one that the majority of people can understand. That is why, on that and on a number of other points that have been highlighted, we are continuing to reflect on whether the bill requires to be amended. We are open to further views on those issues. Given that the bill is subject to the Scottish Law Commission bill procedure, I would, of course, be interested in the committee’s views on any changes that took the provisions beyond those that were set out as recommendations in the Scottish Law Commission’s 2009 “Report on Succession”. I and my officials will be pleased to take any questions.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
With that, we turn to agenda item 2, which is our stage 1 consideration of the Succession (Scotland) Bill. Today, we will take oral evidence from the Scottis...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
I would be grateful if I could make a very brief statement, convener. I thank the committee for inviting me to give evidence this morning. I welcome the rec...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much for that brief statement, which covers some of the areas that colleagues will, I am sure, want to question you on more closely. I think ...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
That is a very important question. As I said in my opening statement, we need to make laws as understandable as we can, so that it is not necessary for peopl...
The Convener
SNP
It is tempting to suggest that a rather more important document might be one called “What to do before death”.
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
That is a fair point.
The Convener
SNP
The issue affects all of us—there are some inevitabilities in life. On that wonderful note, we will go to John Mason, who will ask about section 1.
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Minister, I note that you referred to guardians being dealt with in section 1. Provisions in wills appointing guardians are included in the scope of section ...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
I am grateful to John Mason for bringing up the issue, because it is a very important one. We continue to reflect on the views that have been expressed abou...
John Mason
SNP
I appreciate your comments. There is a feeling that families are becoming more complex these days. Step-parents are quite a regular feature now; I do not thi...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
Absolutely. I recognise that from my own family. It is a common feature of society today and we need to reflect the modern society in which we live. I take t...
John Mason
SNP
What about the fact that there are other deeds that affect guardianship? Is this the right bill into which to bring all that?
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
The bill is making some important but largely technical adjustments that will bring legislation into line with the current experience in society. As to wheth...
John Mason
SNP
Okay. Thank you.
The Convener
SNP
We turn to John Scott for consideration of the timing of revocation.
John Scott
Con
The committee has heard mixed views about when section 1 should take effect. Arguments on both sides have made reference to what is consistent with the broad...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
Is that question framed specifically with respect to the domicile issue?
John Scott
Con
Yes.
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
The Scottish Law Commission is of the view that in order to provide an appropriate link with Scotland the rule should apply where the testator dies domiciled...
John Scott
Con
So you are not persuaded in any way by TrustBar’s arguments for an alternative approach?
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
We will continue to listen to the views of the committee. If the committee has a strong view that counters the position that we have taken today and the view...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for putting the Government’s view on the record. We will shortly be reflecting on the totality of the evidence, and if we feel that we need to impr...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
A number of witnesses have argued, both for reasons of principle and for practical reasons, that the current scope of sections 3 and 4 should be expanded to ...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
Mr Baker raises an important issue. I believe that we have reflected on the views that have been expressed by other witnesses to the committee. As he has sai...
Richard Baker
Lab
That might well be helpful. I take your point that the key issue is about there being another person involved in the process.
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
That is my understanding.
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
SNP
I want to explore the nature of the other person that you are seeking to catch. It seemed, on the basis of evidence that the committee has had, that the lega...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
I am happy to be corrected by Jill Clark and Kathryn MacGregor if I am incorrect, but I understand that, in the framing of the legislation to date, we have n...
Jill Clark (Scottish Government)
The minister is absolutely right. We do not have a view that it need be a legally qualified person. It could be a layperson. It is about things being lost in...
The Convener
SNP
Before we come back to Stewart Stevenson’s question, I would like to pursue that. If I have heard you aright, you are suggesting that the important thing is ...