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Speaker unknown Chamber

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote has been recorded.

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote will be recorded.

Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Okay, thank you.

Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber

My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The question on the motion will be put at decision time.

Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

Go on—why not?

The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...

Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.

David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...

Bob Doris SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

We move to the open debate.15:58

Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47

Michael Marra Lab Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...

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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 October 2015

07 Oct 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament

Item of business

Fiscal Framework

Brown, Gavin Con Lothian Watch on SPTV

I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent witnesses, and the report is a pretty impressive piece of work. I also congratulate the convener of the committee on his speech, which reflected pretty fairly the conclusions that we reached.

The first point that I will make is about transparency. I entirely accept the Deputy First Minister’s argument that it is not desirable and probably not achievable to give a running commentary on all the negotiations and discussions between Governments, but I would like him to address, perhaps in his closing speech, whether there is something between a running commentary and the current position. Although the communiqués are clearly intended not to tell us terribly much—I suspect that that is pure protocol—I cannot help but think that there is some possibility that we could get a bit more information than we currently get, so that Parliament and the Finance Committee in particular have a slightly clearer idea of where we are going.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab

The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14432, in the name of Kenneth Gibson, on Scotland’s fiscal framework. I call on Kenneth Gibson to speak t...

Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP

One of the key priorities of the Finance Committee throughout the current session has been to ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation a...

Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP

I think that what was said about no detriment is important. Paragraph 174 contains the unanimous recommendation that there should be an independent arbiter b...

Kenneth Gibson SNP

That should be the case. One of the things that came through strongly in the evidence that we took was that the Treasury is sometimes quite byzantine in the ...

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP

I am grateful to the members of Finance Committee for their report on Scotland’s fiscal framework. The written submissions and oral sessions all underline th...

Alex Salmond SNP

In line with the evidence and the unanimous recommendation of the committee, will the Scottish Government regard the establishment of an independent arbitrat...

John Swinney SNP

That would be an essential part of the process. Independent arbitration gives us confidence that, in a necessarily adversarial relationship with Her Majesty’...

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab

Everybody loves a good mystery. There is nothing quite like a page-turner and those moments of dramatic suspense to keep a reader completely engaged. Finally...

John Swinney SNP

I understand the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and I am doing my level best to inform the debate—hence my response to the Finance Committee and my con...

Jackie Baillie Lab

I am happy to do so but, in the time that I have been allocated, it will not be possible to do that justice. I am happy to engage with the cabinet secretary,...

John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP

Will the member give way?

Jackie Baillie Lab

I think that I am in my final minute.

The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab

I can allow you time if you wish.

Jackie Baillie Lab

I am happy to give way.

John Mason SNP

Does the member agree that having an independent arbiter would really take a change of culture and thinking at Westminster? Has she seen any sign that that m...

Jackie Baillie Lab

I absolutely agree that it would take a change of culture. In fact, a lot of the committee’s report is imbued with exactly that. I am not a mind reader as to...

Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con

I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent w...

John Swinney SNP

Will Mr Brown help me by dropping me some comments after the debate on what type of information he believes would be helpful? I would appreciate it if he dro...

Gavin Brown Con

I am happy to drop the Deputy First Minister that note. Let us take revenue borrowing, which I know from the communiqué was one of the issues that were disc...

Alex Salmond SNP

Let us say for a second that Jackie Baillie’s promotion of Gavin Brown had come into effect and that he was a Treasury minister, but let us say that he was a...

Gavin Brown Con

In relation to the former First Minister’s comments, I am not sure whether I have less chance of being a Treasury minister or of being a Scottish Government ...

Alex Salmond SNP

Thank goodness the member is not a minister.

Gavin Brown Con

If the former First Minister had spent more time reading the report than he has on the Starship Enterprise, he might have been perfectly aware that I dissent...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab

Mr Brown, I can give you the time back for the interventions.

Gavin Brown Con

I am grateful for that. I have to say that the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill that the Scottish Government has put forward is disappointing and a bit tooth...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab

We move to the open debate. Speeches can be of seven minutes or so, and I still have generous time in hand for interventions. 15:22

Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP

While listening to Jackie Baillie’s speech, I was interested by her trying to conjure the image of a mystery thriller. Unfortunately, during the course of he...

Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab

The report contains many important recommendations, all of which I agree with. I suppose that the most controversial part relates to the Fiscal Commission, a...

Mark McDonald SNP

Malcolm Chisholm and I are both members of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee so does he agree that, on further scrutiny, it takes two to tango and th...

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

I absolutely agree with that. The block grant adjustment is a key issue for the whole fiscal framework, and the Finance Committee has emphasised that the ca...