Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 29 January 2015
29 Jan 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
It probably will not come as a great surprise to learn that we will not be supporting the bill at decision time today. We do not take that decision for any great affection or love for the community charge, as Mr Swinney rather lazily suggested. We do not do it because we have yet to catch up. We do it for reasons of principle and pragmatism.
The principle has been outlined by John Swinney himself—he has said it so many times in the chamber—that people should properly pay taxes for which they are liable. What he has not said before in the chamber is that that only applies to taxes with which he agrees or taxes that, in his view, are live.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-12176, in the name of John Swinney, on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. 15:31
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney)
SNP
On 2 October last year, the former First Minister announced the Government’s intention to introduce legislation to ensure that councils could take no further...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Were local authorities consulted on the principle of the bill?
John Swinney
SNP
No. The Government decided on the principle of the bill. The Government takes policy decisions and then we consult on how to take forward those policy decisi...
Gavin Brown
Con
I take the cabinet secretary’s point on that, but surely to goodness this is a breach of the principle that he has just espoused.
John Swinney
SNP
It is not a breach of the principle that I have espoused. Mr Brown should look at the data that is available to Parliament. I take one particular example: An...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Finance Committee in the debate. The bill provides for an end to the collection of community charge, or poll tax, deb...
Alex Rowley (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Lab
We should recap on where we are with the bill. We are here today because before the referendum we saw a massive increase in people registering to vote—someth...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
It probably will not come as a great surprise to learn that we will not be supporting the bill at decision time today. We do not take that decision for any g...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Would the member accept that there are other principles at play here, such as mercy?
Gavin Brown
Con
Let us throw in another, then: the idea that two people both vehemently disagreed with the community charge but one of them paid it and made sacrifices to do...
John Swinney
SNP
Now that, for the last financial year for which data is available, we are collecting £327,000, whereas there is £425 million outstanding, would Mr Brown care...
Gavin Brown
Con
The Deputy First Minister will know as well as I do that COSLA is not enthusiastic about the bill and that the majority of councils that responded to the com...
John Swinney
SNP
So why is it on the statute?
Gavin Brown
Con
Mr Swinney asks why it is there, but he put that figure on page 1 of the policy memorandum. He does not like the figure, but he is the one who put it down th...
John Swinney
SNP
Mr Brown has in no way addressed the fact that, in the most recent year, we are now collecting £327,000. If the trajectory carried on, it would be a lower am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
We do not have a lot of time, Mr Brown, but I will give you an extra minute.
Gavin Brown
Con
We can justify it simply because COSLA and the councils that gave evidence to the Finance Committee said that there was not a need for legislation. They are ...
John Swinney
SNP
Yes, I know.
Gavin Brown
Con
Mr Swinney claims to know, but he did not carry out a consultation. He said that he consulted COSLA, but the Scottish Government did not formally do so. We w...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
There are a few issues that need to be dealt with. First, the use of the £425 million figure, which was used when the discussion first took place, has been u...
Gavin Brown
Con
Will the member give way?
Mark McDonald
SNP
I am in my last 30 seconds.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I can give you more time, if you wish.
Mark McDonald
SNP
In that case, I will take Mr Brown’s intervention.
Gavin Brown
Con
Will Mr McDonald acknowledge that Dundee City Council, which he quoted and which is in favour of the bill, raised in quite intelligent terms the concerns to ...
Mark McDonald
SNP
I did not say at any point that those concerns were not raised. I am simply saying that, if those concerns were in fact material, I would expect to see evide...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You must begin to close now.
Mark McDonald
SNP
The position was not restricted to one council leader; there was a pattern of potential pursuit through the referendum electoral registers. I think that the...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I support the bill, which feels very much like the last nail in the coffin of the poll tax, but we should remember—keeping things in perspective—that that ac...