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Showing 60 of 2,096,445 contributions. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
17:18
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote has been recorded.
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Your vote will be recorded.
Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.The vote is closed.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.
Speaker unknown Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
Okay, thank you.
Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Decision Time
There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The question on the motion will be put at decision time.
Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
Go on—why not?
The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Parliamentary Bureau Motion
The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...
Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?
The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.
David Barratt SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.
David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...
Bob Doris SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...
Ivan McKee SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...
The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
We move to the open debate.15:58
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...
David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47
Michael Marra Lab Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber
11 Jun 2026
Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)
I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 August 2014

19 Aug 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

Iain Gray began his speech by quoting Einstein, to the effect that

“The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.”

To be perfectly honest, and at the risk of being expelled from the Finance Committee, I think that the hardest thing in the world to understand is the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill. In view of that, I thank all those who helped me and, no doubt, others to understand better—namely, the adviser in particular, the clerks, the witnesses, the bill team and the cabinet secretary himself.

I also thank the cabinet secretary for taking on board so many of the committee’s recommendations in his stage 2 amendments and, of course, in further amendments today. I should thank him particularly for the amendment in which he picked up a point that I made in committee. Referring to artificiality in the GAAR, I asked why the reference to “reasonable business conduct” in section 59 should not be extended to include personal conduct. I welcome the amendment that the cabinet secretary lodged to deal with that issue.

The word “reasonable” has haunted our discussions. I even found myself at one point saying that the UK double reasonableness test was quite reasonable. In the end, I am quite happy to defer to the Government in that regard.

On the general anti-avoidance rule, there were some concerns that the bill had been drawn too broadly and that the language that was used in defining what constitutes a reasonable action was too vague. Part 5 of the bill outlines that any activity that has the obtaining of a tax advantage as the main purpose, or one of the main purposes, of the arrangement may be deemed unlawful. I believe, however, that it is right to draw the rule quite widely as, historically—and specifically in the case of HMRC—the use of a more targeted or narrow approach has led to the emergence of loopholes that can be abused by businesses. Having the principles of the GAAR enshrined in the bill will, I hope, mitigate the need for any targeted rules for tax avoidance in future.

Further to that, although I recognise that the double reasonableness test may be construed as being unnecessarily complicated, its absence from this new legislation means that we must make absolutely certain that channels are made available to challenge any decision in a timely and fair manner. Therefore, a vigorous approach to tax avoidance must be balanced by a fair appeals system. I raised that issue at stage 1 in the committee with the cabinet secretary, and the committee recommended that he reconsider the restrictive rule governing appeals in the Court of Session and the number of members of the upper tax tribunal for appeals. I would welcome reassurance from the cabinet secretary, in his wind-up speech, about the fairness of the appeals system.

Another issue of fairness concerns the contrast between the advice that is offered by lawyers and accountants and to what extent it should be privileged. I believe that what is and is not privileged advice should apply equally to all advisers, whether or not they are lawyers. I would welcome a statement of the Government’s most up-to-date thinking on that matter.

Finally on fairness, equality between taxpayers and revenue Scotland is also important. Part 2 of the bill addresses the establishment of revenue Scotland and provides for its general functions and responsibilities as we take forward the devolution process. Looking at the final draft, it is reassuring to see that a number of the recommendations that were made at the committee stage have been taken on board by the cabinet secretary with regards to that process. That includes putting taxpayers and revenue Scotland on an even footing in the expectations that are placed upon them in the charter. That was not the case in previous stages of the bill. The change of language to

“standards of behaviour and values which revenue Scotland is expected to adhere to”,

rather than “aspire to”, will not only reassure taxpayers but firmly cement the duties of the new body on the face of the bill.

Section 10(3A) of the bill should also be welcome as it offers the assurance that the charter will be drafted and subsequently redrafted only after revenue Scotland consults such persons as it considers appropriate. That is good news, as the charter should not be skewed towards the interests of revenue Scotland but, rather, should represent the best practice for the widest number of stakeholders. I would, however, welcome a little more in the way of reassurance that revenue Scotland will engage with as many stakeholders as is practically possible, making it absolutely clear to Parliament who has been involved and for what reason.

With regard to the delegation to Registers of Scotland and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency of duties relating to land and buildings transaction tax and landfill tax respectively, I welcome the pledge to publish information concerning the nature of that delegation and to lay it before Parliament, and the fact that revenue Scotland will still be ultimately responsible for carrying out delegated functions. Those powers may be delegated as and when revenue Scotland sees fit. Although I support the theory behind that, I was somewhat concerned by some of the evidence on the balance of responsibilities and the pressures that that may bring. The Faculty of Advocates was keen to point out that certain powers, such as the power to levy a penalty or to make an assessment, are inherently the concern of the taxing authority, and that revenue Scotland should not be given carte blanche to delegate at will. Powers must be delegated according to what works best where. Some responsibilities are best kept within the remit of revenue Scotland.

The tax system that a country adopts goes fundamentally to the heart of what sort of society we wish to create. I believe that, within the framework of devolution, it is possible to achieve the best outcomes for Scotland. In co-operating so well, the Finance Committee and the cabinet secretary have provided Parliament with an effective foundation stone for fiscal devolution. The bill that is before us, with its enshrined charter of responsibilities, will encourage a relationship of respect between the taxpayer and the authority, based on transparency and accountability. I congratulate all members who have been involved with this process and hope that, in future years, the same approach will be applied. I support the bill and thank the Government for bringing forward this landmark legislation.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-10822, in the name of John Swinney, on the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill. 15:44
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney) SNP
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill has two main purposes. First, it will establish revenue Scotland as the tax authority responsible for the collection...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I quoted Albert Einstein, as I do whenever I am given the opportunity. Einstein said: “The hardest thing in the world to understand i...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
It has been interesting and rewarding to be involved with the bill. I am extremely grateful to Professor Gavin McEwen, who gave expert advice to the Finance ...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I thank the people who have been involved in the bill’s progress: the members of the Finance Committee; committee clerks; the committee’s adviser, Professor ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Microphone, Mr Gibson.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I apologise.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
That is much better. We can hear you now.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
I can see how much attention members have been paying to my speech, given that I am about a third of the way through and I have only just realised that they ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Everyone was just enjoying you being quiet.
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That is a great vote of confidence. Perhaps I should sit down now. Under the bill, the relationship between the tax authority and taxpayers will be clarifie...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lab
According to Denis Healey, “The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.” The former chancellor was absolutely r...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) LD
I am grateful to the committee, the advisers, the clerks and the Government officials for their detailed work over a long time. It is striking that this aft...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. Taxation may not be everyone’s most exciting topic, but I find it extremely interesting, and the bill is ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
That brings us to the closing speeches. I call Gavin Brown. 16:23
Gavin Brown Con
If that was John Mason being optimistic about the tax system, I hope that I am not here on the day when he is pessimistic. Quite rightly, this has been a br...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Iain Gray began his speech by quoting Einstein, to the effect that “The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.” To be perfectly honest...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind Parliament that our debates this afternoon are on a follow-on basis and therefore I trust that all members will be in the chamber for the next debat...
John Swinney SNP
Iain Gray said that today marked the conclusion of the trilogy of bills. That got me thinking. There is Peter May, that great Scots author, responsible for t...
Iain Gray Lab
In the spirit of the famous game “Scissors, paper, stone”, the fact is that Peter May’s product will eventually end up in landfill and be subject to the land...
John Swinney SNP
It will not for a long time, I hope. Today’s debate has been a welcome conclusion to a really good parliamentary process. I thank the bill team for their wo...