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Speaker unknown Chamber

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

That concludes decision time.17:31The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The final question is, that motion S7M-00346, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee membership, be agreed to.Motion agreed to,That the Parliament agrees the membership of committees of the Parliament as follows—Climate Action Committ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, is: For 67, Against 25, Abstentions 26.Motion, as amended, agreed to,That the Parliament welcomes that the...

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote has been recorded.

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sorry—I could not connect to the voting app. I would have abstained.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The sixth question is, that motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, is: For 36, Against 67, Abstentions 16.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and Wes...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Your vote will be recorded.

Duncan Dunlop (South Scotland) (LD) LD Chamber

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I apologise—my vote was not recorded. I would have voted yes.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.The vote is closed.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The fifth question is, that amendment S7M-00309.1, in the name of David Green, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 26, Against 91, Abstentions 0.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Is...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.5, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, is: For 66, Against 27, Abstentions 26.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)Beattie, Colin (Midlothi...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.2, in the name of Lorna Slater, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities, be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, is: For 17, Against 92, Abstentions 9.Amendment disagreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForBannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)Langan, Jam...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Malcolm Offord is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser will fall.The next question is, that amendment S7M-00309.4, in the name of Malcolm Offord, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan M...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

The result of the division on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, is: For 94, Against 15, Abstentions 9.Amendment agreed to.

Speaker unknown Chamber

ForAdam, George (Paisley) (SNP)Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)Baillie, ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Okay, thank you.

Lorna Slater (Edinburgh Central) (Green) Green Chamber

My apologies, Presiding Officer. That was left over from when the app was not working.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

We come to the vote on amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee. Members should cast their vote now.The vote is closed.We have a point of order from Lorna Slater.

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.17:18Meeting suspended.17:21On resuming—

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

There are seven questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S7M-00309.3, in the name of Michael Marra, which seeks to amend motion S7M-00309, in the name of Ivan McKee, on public service reform and empowering staff, service users ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The question on the motion will be put at decision time.

Jamie Hepburn SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I hate to disappoint Ivan McKee, but his speech was not the last speech before the world cup. I will also undoubtedly disappoint other members given that we are looking to get out, but I will not take too long.Members will be aware that standing orders require the Parliamentar...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

Go on—why not?

The Minister for Parliamentary Business and Veterans (Jamie Hepburn) SNP Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

I will move and speak to the motion, Presiding Officer.

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S7M-00346, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion.17:16

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

That concludes the debate on public service reform and empowering staff, service users and local communities.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does Mr Kerr want to intervene? I will get the time back, so I am happy to take his point. No, he does not. Okay.We have already saved more than £50 million on estates. I thought that it was 12, but we have now, in fact, shut 13 Scottish Government buildings. Murdo Fraser has ...

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Mr Kerr, you know to try to intervene rather than to attack from a sedentary position.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I think that the confusion is more broad. The Reform manifesto talks about getting rid of all 130 public bodies—or “quangos”, as they call them. However, there is also a recognition from across the Reform benches that those public bodies—whether Police Scotland, the court syst...

Victor Currie (Highlands and Islands) (Reform) Reform Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Does the cabinet secretary recall that Max Bannerman’s point on community wind farms was that they do not rely on subsidies? Therefore, it forms no contradiction in Reform policy on our opposition to net zero.

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Yes. David Barratt also draws out the important point that the inconsistency in the Reform position is quite apparent. Reform members say in their amendment that we should not be talking about this stuff, and then they go on to talk about it from very different and contradicto...

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

—renewable energy schemes and for community-owned wind. Does the cabinet secretary agree that that is not the kind of reform that we need?

The Presiding Officer NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Hello. It is not a speech within a speech. It is an intervention.

David Barratt SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In moving the Reform amendment, Malcolm Offord stated that the Scottish Government should have no remit on net zero and energy, and he suggested cutting public bodies that are responsible for related areas. In contrast, Max Bannerman noted the value of community wind power in ...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I will take David Barratt’s intervention, and then I will go on to talk about those other contributions.

David Barratt (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

In principle, we need stability of funding and to recognise the great work that happens in community organisations, which I see every week in my constituency. That work is absolutely critical, because those organisations are, to a large extent, the front line, and their abilit...

Bob Doris SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I commend the comments on the third sector that we have heard in the chamber this afternoon. I draw the cabinet secretary’s attention to the Social Justice and Social Security Committee’s report on funding of the third and voluntary sectors, and I highlight the longer-term fun...

Ivan McKee SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

On reflection, I am happy with the extent of the contributions that we have heard this afternoon. As I indicated at the outset, I was keen to hear from members, and that is what has happened for the most part. I will try to pick my way through the mind map that I have in front...

The Presiding Officer (Kenneth Gibson) NPA Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

Before I call the cabinet secretary, I say to members that, if they seek to make an intervention, they should remember to stand up and ask to make an intervention. I notice that buttons are pressed but, sometimes, the speakers do not see who is trying to intervene.17:05

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

We move to the open debate.15:58

Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I congratulate Ivan McKee—I will call him super Ivan, given the scale of his task, based on his speech and the vision that he has set out today.From listening to colleagues from across the chamber, I am struck that there is a lot of common ground here, and I think that we need...

David Green (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (LD) LD Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I begin by welcoming the cabinet secretary to his new role and wishing him well. As we have already heard, Mr McKee has been handed what might become the defining task of this Government, which is tackling the £5 billion black hole in Scotland’s finances. As Murdo Fraser has j...

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Clare Adamson) SNP Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I call Murdo Fraser, who joins us online.15:47

Michael Marra Lab Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I point gently to the fact that Alyn Smith’s party had an outright majority in the Parliament for one of those parliamentary sessions, so not having had the numbers is not a foolproof excuse.Alyn Smith will find common ground across different areas. My note of caution to him w...

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Chamber

Public Service Reform (Staff, Service Users and Local Communities)

I should explain that I am having to contribute remotely today due to a family issue; otherwise, I would be in the chamber.I welcome Ivan McKee to his new role as Cabinet Secretary for Public Service Reform. I know that he is keen to dispel the notion that he is here as an axe...

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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 26 February 2014

26 Feb 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament

Item of business

Scotland’s Children

Russell, Michael SNP Argyll and Bute Watch on SPTV

Will Liz Smith give way?

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con

The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-09140, in the name of Neil Bibby, on Scotland’s children. I invite members who wish to speak in the debat...

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab

Like all parties in the chamber, the Scottish Labour Party continues to support curriculum for excellence. We want it to work, and that is why Scottish Labou...

The Minister for Learning, Science and Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan) SNP

Will the member give way?

Neil Bibby Lab

I am happy to give way to the minister, who I hope will respond to the concerns of those teachers.

Dr Allan SNP

I am grateful to the member for raising these issues. As I have indicated throughout the process, the Government is keen to hear from teachers. It is importa...

Neil Bibby Lab

Teachers can complain about the situation because it is completely unacceptable. We need a review for the very reasons that the minister has just outlined. I...

The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell) SNP

The member has just asserted that“so many pupils will not be studying the new highers next year”.Can he benefit the chamber by telling me how many? What prec...

Neil Bibby Lab

Forgive me, Presiding Officer, but I did not know that I had assumed the position of Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning. If I was the cabi...

Michael Russell SNP

He does not know.

Neil Bibby Lab

Mr Russell does not know, and that is concerning. Instead of leadership, we have seen complete complacency—Interruption.

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

Can we have a bit of order, please? Interruption. Order!

Neil Bibby Lab

It has fallen to local authorities such as Fife Council to give the leadership that has been lacking from the cabinet secretary’s actions. Such is its commit...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

I ask the member to move his motion as he draws to a close.

Neil Bibby Lab

It is vital that lessons are learned, so that we can prevent such a situation from happening again.The situation is unacceptable and the Government has been ...

The Minister for Learning, Science and Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan) SNP

I am grateful for the opportunity to pause to remember why we are doing what we are doing in CFE and to reflect on the positive progress that has been made f...

Neil Bibby Lab

Pupils, parents and teachers all need to feel confident before exams take place. Will the minister help to alleviate concerns by ensuring as a matter of urge...

Dr Allan SNP

I am glad that Neil Bibby has asked that, because it was one of the interesting issues that was raised at yesterday’s meeting of the Education and Culture Co...

Neil Bibby Lab

Will the minister clarify how many specimen higher papers will be published? He will be aware that concerns have been raised about the lack of resources for ...

Dr Allan SNP

On the last question, the Government recently made an extra £1 million available to assist local authorities with textbooks, and we remain open to schools’ a...

Neil Bibby Lab

It was about the number of specimen papers that will be published.

Dr Allan SNP

In the next few days, a specimen paper will be made available for all the new higher courses.On the subject of highers, it is also worth saying—

The Deputy Presiding Officer Con

You should draw to a close.

Dr Allan SNP

The Government is listening—not only to parents and schools, but to teachers. We want to do what we can to ensure that confidence is not undermined at this c...

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con

I thank the Labour Party for selecting the topic for debate at what is clearly an extremely important time for the curriculum for excellence and the new qual...

Michael Russell SNP

Will Liz Smith give way?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab

The member is concluding, cabinet secretary. You must be very brief.

Michael Russell SNP

The SQA has made it clear that local authorities take the ultimate responsibility, but I thank Liz Smith for raising the issue in the way that she has raised...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab

You must conclude now, Ms Smith.

Liz Smith Con

I very much appreciate the cabinet secretary’s comments because the issue is certainly worrying parents.I agree with Labour that, whether we are talking abou...

The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab

I am afraid that you really must finish, Ms Smith.