Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2013
05 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Taking Children into Care
The issue of looked-after children and young people and how we improve the life experiences and outcomes for that group has dominated the work of the Education and Culture Committee in this parliamentary session. None of the committee members, either past or present, would make any apology for that focus or for the time that we have committed to getting into the detail of the issues involved. The issues are complex, and that is reflected in the latest report. The area does not lend itself to neat, far less to easy, solutions.
I add my thanks to all those who gave evidence and helped in the development of the committee report, and the report that preceded it on improving the outcomes for looked-after children. One inquiry flowed naturally from the other, although even now I have the sense that we have scarcely done justice to many of the issues. As the convener of the committee indicated, it is inevitable that we—and certainly successor committees—will return to the subject in the future.
As the convener explained, the approach that was taken to the report was rather different from before, with interim findings and a parliamentary debate as well as a special hearing that involved the wide range of stakeholders whose work in the field on a daily basis deserves our respect and gratitude.
Above all, we were committed to hearing the voices of children and young people with direct experience of the care system. Their testimony was particularly powerful and at times highly creative. We owe a special debt to Who Cares? Scotland for its help throughout the inquiry, not least in the session with those with direct experience.
As well as being moved by the piece of theatre that the young people performed, I was struck by what they had to say. They wanted to feel involved in decisions that profoundly affect their lives; they wanted a sense of belonging and not to be shunted from pillar to post; and, most of all, they wanted a strong, stable, supportive and loving environment in which to be brought up.
As Jayne Baxter rightly said, those are all things that we would expect for our own children and things that we should aspire to deliver for those for whom we have responsibility as corporate parents. The committee’s report is helpful in that regard, and the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill, which the committee is currently considering, has the potential to deliver real improvements for those who are in care and those who are leaving care.
I will turn to those people shortly, but I first want to reflect briefly on the Government’s response to the committee’s report. I confess that, in places, the response left me a little frustrated. It is, of course, generally very positive, and I absolutely agree with the minister’s view that the focus must be on early intervention, particularly in the early years, and also on early permanence. Nevertheless, I felt too often that the message was either “We’re doing this already” or “This is nothing to do with us.” That may be unfair and it may reflect the iterative nature of two committee inquiries in which we have been in almost constant dialogue with the Scottish Government, but in some places the response still felt a bit unsatisfactory.
For example, the minister’s letter to the convener starts by declaring that there are
“encouraging signs that outcomes are improving gradually across almost all indicators”.
I agree that the picture is not universally bleak, but that statement seems unduly upbeat. For example, the committee found little evidence that outcomes for those who are looked after at home are anything other than shockingly poor, as the convener suggested, in respect of education, health, homelessness or involvement in the criminal justice system.
Later in the response, the minister talks of her
“programme of work to encourage strategic commissioning”.
That is very welcome, but again on the evidence that we received from those who are involved in the third sector, that is a way off happening in almost all parts of the country.
Likewise, the committee’s concerns about workforce training and retention in social work appear to have been rather brushed aside. I am not suggesting that no action has been taken by the minister in conjunction with local authorities—far from it—or that there are any easy answers, but we heard firm evidence that retaining staff in what can often be highly stressful roles in children and families social work is a problem in many areas.
I think that George Adam indicated that we heard that retaining experienced social workers on the front line was a particular challenge. Obviously, that is a concern, as providing high-quality assessment of difficult cases perhaps depends more on experience than training.
That said, I recognise the steps that the Government has taken and is taking. Indeed, I welcome the establishment of the permanence leaders group. I also acknowledge the opportunity that the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill presents to make further progress, for which there is solid cross-party commitment.
Where can that progress be made? According to Barnardo’s, improving outcomes requires improvement in the consistency, speed and timeliness of decision making, and an absolute focus on securing permanency once a decision is made to take a child into care. That was entirely borne out by our inquiry.
On consistency, Barnardo’s has highlighted the different risk assessment processes that are used by authorities in Scotland and that uncertainty about what evidence needs to be gathered leads to needless delays. As such, a common framework across the country is necessary.
Speed of decision making is also crucial, notwithstanding that such decisions are probably the most difficult that an authority has to make. As the minister acknowledges, the issue is about not just speed but achieving permanency quickly. Barnardo’s proposes a six-month timeframe for conducting a parental assessment and highlights—as Ken Macintosh did—the need for much stronger support for parents when a decision is taken to leave a child in or return it to the family home. Often the reverse happens, which is a complaint that we hear particularly from parents of children with disabilities or additional support needs, although I hope that proposals in the bill for a named person and a single child’s plan will help in that respect.
Early decision making is also vital. As Stewart Maxwell said, the complaint from many of the young people that we spoke to was that they were left in a poor home environment for too long. The earlier that decisions are made—at whatever age—the better the outcomes for the child or young person.
I add my thanks to all those who gave evidence and helped in the development of the committee report, and the report that preceded it on improving the outcomes for looked-after children. One inquiry flowed naturally from the other, although even now I have the sense that we have scarcely done justice to many of the issues. As the convener of the committee indicated, it is inevitable that we—and certainly successor committees—will return to the subject in the future.
As the convener explained, the approach that was taken to the report was rather different from before, with interim findings and a parliamentary debate as well as a special hearing that involved the wide range of stakeholders whose work in the field on a daily basis deserves our respect and gratitude.
Above all, we were committed to hearing the voices of children and young people with direct experience of the care system. Their testimony was particularly powerful and at times highly creative. We owe a special debt to Who Cares? Scotland for its help throughout the inquiry, not least in the session with those with direct experience.
As well as being moved by the piece of theatre that the young people performed, I was struck by what they had to say. They wanted to feel involved in decisions that profoundly affect their lives; they wanted a sense of belonging and not to be shunted from pillar to post; and, most of all, they wanted a strong, stable, supportive and loving environment in which to be brought up.
As Jayne Baxter rightly said, those are all things that we would expect for our own children and things that we should aspire to deliver for those for whom we have responsibility as corporate parents. The committee’s report is helpful in that regard, and the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill, which the committee is currently considering, has the potential to deliver real improvements for those who are in care and those who are leaving care.
I will turn to those people shortly, but I first want to reflect briefly on the Government’s response to the committee’s report. I confess that, in places, the response left me a little frustrated. It is, of course, generally very positive, and I absolutely agree with the minister’s view that the focus must be on early intervention, particularly in the early years, and also on early permanence. Nevertheless, I felt too often that the message was either “We’re doing this already” or “This is nothing to do with us.” That may be unfair and it may reflect the iterative nature of two committee inquiries in which we have been in almost constant dialogue with the Scottish Government, but in some places the response still felt a bit unsatisfactory.
For example, the minister’s letter to the convener starts by declaring that there are
“encouraging signs that outcomes are improving gradually across almost all indicators”.
I agree that the picture is not universally bleak, but that statement seems unduly upbeat. For example, the committee found little evidence that outcomes for those who are looked after at home are anything other than shockingly poor, as the convener suggested, in respect of education, health, homelessness or involvement in the criminal justice system.
Later in the response, the minister talks of her
“programme of work to encourage strategic commissioning”.
That is very welcome, but again on the evidence that we received from those who are involved in the third sector, that is a way off happening in almost all parts of the country.
Likewise, the committee’s concerns about workforce training and retention in social work appear to have been rather brushed aside. I am not suggesting that no action has been taken by the minister in conjunction with local authorities—far from it—or that there are any easy answers, but we heard firm evidence that retaining staff in what can often be highly stressful roles in children and families social work is a problem in many areas.
I think that George Adam indicated that we heard that retaining experienced social workers on the front line was a particular challenge. Obviously, that is a concern, as providing high-quality assessment of difficult cases perhaps depends more on experience than training.
That said, I recognise the steps that the Government has taken and is taking. Indeed, I welcome the establishment of the permanence leaders group. I also acknowledge the opportunity that the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill presents to make further progress, for which there is solid cross-party commitment.
Where can that progress be made? According to Barnardo’s, improving outcomes requires improvement in the consistency, speed and timeliness of decision making, and an absolute focus on securing permanency once a decision is made to take a child into care. That was entirely borne out by our inquiry.
On consistency, Barnardo’s has highlighted the different risk assessment processes that are used by authorities in Scotland and that uncertainty about what evidence needs to be gathered leads to needless delays. As such, a common framework across the country is necessary.
Speed of decision making is also crucial, notwithstanding that such decisions are probably the most difficult that an authority has to make. As the minister acknowledges, the issue is about not just speed but achieving permanency quickly. Barnardo’s proposes a six-month timeframe for conducting a parental assessment and highlights—as Ken Macintosh did—the need for much stronger support for parents when a decision is taken to leave a child in or return it to the family home. Often the reverse happens, which is a complaint that we hear particularly from parents of children with disabilities or additional support needs, although I hope that proposals in the bill for a named person and a single child’s plan will help in that respect.
Early decision making is also vital. As Stewart Maxwell said, the complaint from many of the young people that we spoke to was that they were left in a poor home environment for too long. The earlier that decisions are made—at whatever age—the better the outcomes for the child or young person.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08480, in the name of Stewart Maxwell, on decision making on whether to take children into care.I call St...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Today’s debate comes soon after the stage 1 debate on the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill. That discussion demonstrated strong cross-party support ...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
I welcome this afternoon’s debate, which the Education and Culture Committee has brought to the chamber following its recent inquiry. I congratulate the comm...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
One of the ways to help young children in particular is childcare. Today, we have learned that the Scottish Government will receive £300 million in consequen...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
We have made clear within our bill our commitment to supporting children in their earliest years and we have set out our aspiration with the 600 hours of chi...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Neil Findlay needs to consider his tone during this debate, which is about trying to work constructively together on this important issue.Improvement of corp...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
As I am the newest member of the Education and Culture Committee, some might say that I had the luxury of considering the final report without having to unde...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I put on record apologies from my colleague Mary Scanlon, who was due to participate in the debate. As a result of the travel situation she has had to head b...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The member will recall the debate that we had in the committee about the fact that early intervention does not relate simply to the early years. Does she sha...
Liz Smith
Con
I absolutely share that concern—I do not think that we could doubt the evidence that was given to the committee on that point. However, we have had other car...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We now turn to the open debate. At this stage, I can offer speeches of around six minutes, with time for interventions.15:22
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
The debate comes on the back of the Education and Culture Committee’s extensive inquiry into decision making on whether to take young children into care. As ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the committee for taking on this challenging and contentious subject and for producing such a thoughtful and, I hope, helpful report.Given the broad ...
Liam McArthur
LD
One of the other things that we heard about early intervention is that it is not just about intervening with a view to taking a child away; it is about arriv...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I entirely agree with Mr McArthur. Although I was highlighting acute need, I will return to that point and the need for quick support, early intervention and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
As members will be aware, there is quite a bit of time in hand, which will allow for interventions and even the development of themes and ideas. I now call C...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, thank you for that challenge at the start of my speech. I begin by associating myself with Stewart Maxwell’s comments about the witnesses ...
Liz Smith
Con
Clare Adamson has pointed to the frustration that I feel, and I do not deny that we have come some way towards addressing the problem. However, one of the mo...
Clare Adamson
SNP
I absolutely agree, and I have had the same experience when listening to such comments. However, we must recognise that the committee’s initial inquiry ident...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The issue of looked-after children and young people and how we improve the life experiences and outcomes for that group has dominated the work of the Educati...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I have listened to Liam McArthur’s speech very carefully and I agree with what he says. Does he share my concern about the decision-making process that leads...
Liam McArthur
LD
The committee convener is absolutely right on that point. It was one of the most striking aspects of the evidence that we received. Such situations almost se...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
SNP
The inquiry has in some respects been difficult for the Education and Culture Committee. I for one hoped that, somewhere among the wealth of information and ...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I rise to speak in the debate with little expertise in this subject, but with a great interest in it. That interest stems partly from my years as the chair o...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will the member give way?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I will, but I probably will not understand Mr Macintosh’s point.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
My question is simply this: why would it be helpful for my six children to have a named person?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I am a parent, like Ken Macintosh, and we never know when we might find ourselves vulnerable as a family. I do my absolute best as a parent, but that is not ...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will Fiona McLeod give way on that point?