Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2013
05 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Taking Children into Care
I thank the committee for taking on this challenging and contentious subject and for producing such a thoughtful and, I hope, helpful report.
Given the broad consensus across the Parliament and across all sectors about the importance of early intervention generally in improving prospects for our children, I was struck by the lack of agreement on the question of when to take a child into care.
There was one particularly insightful comment in the report from Professor Eileen Munro that sums up the dilemma that faces us:
“Society varies in the message that it sends. There are times when it says that a child should never be left in any danger, but it gets into a paddy when a lot of children are taken away. It is always a pendulum that we are trying not to let swing too far in either direction.”
I certainly do not want the pendulum to swing wildly, but we should tip it in the right direction. We still need to be more timeous in interventions, not so much because it will prevent cases of abuse—although we always have to be watchful for that kind of deliberate and wicked cruelty—but to prevent the grinding and depressing prolonged neglect and the damage that it causes that are so much more common.
I will not pretend to bring any sort of expertise to this issue when the committee has clearly benefited from the evidence of so many caring and experienced professionals. However, almost all of the cases that have come to my attention—directly or indirectly, from constituents or other sources—and left me worried have pointed to the need for speedier decision making.
In its interim report, the committee asked:
“Are too many children left too long with parents who neglect or emotionally abuse them?”
The simple answer to that is yes. As the committee has made clear, however, it is not so simple to decide what we can do about it.
For example, it is encouraging to read about the strong public policy focus on achieving permanence for children more quickly. It is not so encouraging to read that the level of early intervention is more likely to reflect the resources that are available to front-line social workers than variation in need or the demand for families.
Given the broad consensus across the Parliament and across all sectors about the importance of early intervention generally in improving prospects for our children, I was struck by the lack of agreement on the question of when to take a child into care.
There was one particularly insightful comment in the report from Professor Eileen Munro that sums up the dilemma that faces us:
“Society varies in the message that it sends. There are times when it says that a child should never be left in any danger, but it gets into a paddy when a lot of children are taken away. It is always a pendulum that we are trying not to let swing too far in either direction.”
I certainly do not want the pendulum to swing wildly, but we should tip it in the right direction. We still need to be more timeous in interventions, not so much because it will prevent cases of abuse—although we always have to be watchful for that kind of deliberate and wicked cruelty—but to prevent the grinding and depressing prolonged neglect and the damage that it causes that are so much more common.
I will not pretend to bring any sort of expertise to this issue when the committee has clearly benefited from the evidence of so many caring and experienced professionals. However, almost all of the cases that have come to my attention—directly or indirectly, from constituents or other sources—and left me worried have pointed to the need for speedier decision making.
In its interim report, the committee asked:
“Are too many children left too long with parents who neglect or emotionally abuse them?”
The simple answer to that is yes. As the committee has made clear, however, it is not so simple to decide what we can do about it.
For example, it is encouraging to read about the strong public policy focus on achieving permanence for children more quickly. It is not so encouraging to read that the level of early intervention is more likely to reflect the resources that are available to front-line social workers than variation in need or the demand for families.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08480, in the name of Stewart Maxwell, on decision making on whether to take children into care.I call St...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Today’s debate comes soon after the stage 1 debate on the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill. That discussion demonstrated strong cross-party support ...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
I welcome this afternoon’s debate, which the Education and Culture Committee has brought to the chamber following its recent inquiry. I congratulate the comm...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
One of the ways to help young children in particular is childcare. Today, we have learned that the Scottish Government will receive £300 million in consequen...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
We have made clear within our bill our commitment to supporting children in their earliest years and we have set out our aspiration with the 600 hours of chi...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Neil Findlay needs to consider his tone during this debate, which is about trying to work constructively together on this important issue.Improvement of corp...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
As I am the newest member of the Education and Culture Committee, some might say that I had the luxury of considering the final report without having to unde...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I put on record apologies from my colleague Mary Scanlon, who was due to participate in the debate. As a result of the travel situation she has had to head b...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The member will recall the debate that we had in the committee about the fact that early intervention does not relate simply to the early years. Does she sha...
Liz Smith
Con
I absolutely share that concern—I do not think that we could doubt the evidence that was given to the committee on that point. However, we have had other car...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We now turn to the open debate. At this stage, I can offer speeches of around six minutes, with time for interventions.15:22
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
The debate comes on the back of the Education and Culture Committee’s extensive inquiry into decision making on whether to take young children into care. As ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the committee for taking on this challenging and contentious subject and for producing such a thoughtful and, I hope, helpful report.Given the broad ...
Liam McArthur
LD
One of the other things that we heard about early intervention is that it is not just about intervening with a view to taking a child away; it is about arriv...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I entirely agree with Mr McArthur. Although I was highlighting acute need, I will return to that point and the need for quick support, early intervention and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
As members will be aware, there is quite a bit of time in hand, which will allow for interventions and even the development of themes and ideas. I now call C...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, thank you for that challenge at the start of my speech. I begin by associating myself with Stewart Maxwell’s comments about the witnesses ...
Liz Smith
Con
Clare Adamson has pointed to the frustration that I feel, and I do not deny that we have come some way towards addressing the problem. However, one of the mo...
Clare Adamson
SNP
I absolutely agree, and I have had the same experience when listening to such comments. However, we must recognise that the committee’s initial inquiry ident...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The issue of looked-after children and young people and how we improve the life experiences and outcomes for that group has dominated the work of the Educati...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I have listened to Liam McArthur’s speech very carefully and I agree with what he says. Does he share my concern about the decision-making process that leads...
Liam McArthur
LD
The committee convener is absolutely right on that point. It was one of the most striking aspects of the evidence that we received. Such situations almost se...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
SNP
The inquiry has in some respects been difficult for the Education and Culture Committee. I for one hoped that, somewhere among the wealth of information and ...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I rise to speak in the debate with little expertise in this subject, but with a great interest in it. That interest stems partly from my years as the chair o...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will the member give way?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I will, but I probably will not understand Mr Macintosh’s point.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
My question is simply this: why would it be helpful for my six children to have a named person?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I am a parent, like Ken Macintosh, and we never know when we might find ourselves vulnerable as a family. I do my absolute best as a parent, but that is not ...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will Fiona McLeod give way on that point?