Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 05 December 2013
05 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Taking Children into Care
The debate comes on the back of the Education and Culture Committee’s extensive inquiry into decision making on whether to take young children into care. As the convener, Stewart Maxwell, rightly said, it is powerful when a young person in his 20s tells the committee as a witness that he and his brother should have been taken into care a lot sooner. As I have said before and I will say again, that brings a reality to the debate and the issues that we are discussing.
Many children’s charities engaged in the process and they mentioned some of the difficulties. One of those, which has been mentioned by Jayne Baxter and other members, is to do with consistency and the fact that local authorities have different guidelines on how to proceed. For example, Barnardo’s Scotland said that it is
“concerned that there is not always consistency in the focus given to the rights of the child.”
It continued:
“We have witnessed some local authorities becoming too optimistic about the outcomes of maintaining the child in the family setting, at the expense of the needs of the child.”
That point also came across strongly when we spoke to young people. Like that young man I mentioned, when they explained their experience, they agreed that, at the time they probably wanted to stay with their family but, in retrospect, they saw that being taken into care made a difference to their life. I am not saying that that applies to every child, but the Scottish Government’s ideal of early intervention and a preventative approach is the way forward.
We have to consider some of the things that young people told the committee. A perfect example was another person in his mid-20s who also had a younger brother, who was a teenager. When we saw the two of them, the older brother felt guilty about the fact that he had not been there to support and look after his family and deal with the issues.
The younger brother had been taken into care earlier and he was, to use a local parochialism, quite gallus about the whole situation. That was a perfect example of how to make things work, given the difference between the two brothers. The younger sibling dealt with the situation a lot better because he was taken into care a lot quicker; the older sibling felt guilty and took it upon himself to deal with the situation.
I welcome the minister’s commitment to improving outcomes for children and young people. The GIRFEC principles in the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill can make a difference. If we use those principles and they are legislated for at local authority level, that might ensure that in future young men like the older brother we met do not feel the way that he did. I am glad that he was able to open up to us, because it made it obvious to us how he felt and what a difference his situation had made to his life.
Another issue that came up was the fact that social work professionals are often promoted and taken away from the front line or leave to go into other roles with children’s charities or other projects. They are still doing good work, but their expertise is taken away from the front-line jobs that we really need people of their experience to do. The Scottish Government and local authorities have to work together to ensure that we retain such staff, because we cannot afford to lose that expertise.
In my days in the motor industry we used to say, “You never promote your best salesman, or salesperson; you always ensure that they are out there doing the job.” It should be almost the same in social work. We must have a way to ensure that good social workers stay at the front line in the profession and continue to do good work. We must give them the support that they need as well.
I mentioned early intervention and prevention. For me, the important aspect of the bill is that there is scope for early intervention and prevention. I said last week that I had been at the Polmont young offenders institution to find out about the Barnardo’s Scotland outside in project, which has made a big difference to the young people there. Many of them were there because they had come from broken homes, were in care and a violent situation had inevitably arisen at some point. When we started talking about things and discussing their issues, they thought that what is in the bill could have made a difference, not to every child, but to some of them. That is the way to go, because if we are to get it right for every child in Scotland and ensure that Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up, we have to make sure that everyone gets an opportunity, regardless of their background.
I agree with Jayne Baxter that there has to be a change of national attitude when it comes to looked-after children. We have to get away from the idea that they are other people’s problems. It is almost like the corporate parenting thing again; we are the ones who have to take on the responsibility.
We must also think differently. The Government needs to work in partnership with local authorities and find solutions to the problems and challenges that we face.
I welcome a lot of the work that we have done. One of the things that I really liked about the inquiry was meeting the young people who have gone through the system; listening to their evidence made it real. I hope that, having listened to it, we will move forward and make things better for children in Scotland.
15:29
Many children’s charities engaged in the process and they mentioned some of the difficulties. One of those, which has been mentioned by Jayne Baxter and other members, is to do with consistency and the fact that local authorities have different guidelines on how to proceed. For example, Barnardo’s Scotland said that it is
“concerned that there is not always consistency in the focus given to the rights of the child.”
It continued:
“We have witnessed some local authorities becoming too optimistic about the outcomes of maintaining the child in the family setting, at the expense of the needs of the child.”
That point also came across strongly when we spoke to young people. Like that young man I mentioned, when they explained their experience, they agreed that, at the time they probably wanted to stay with their family but, in retrospect, they saw that being taken into care made a difference to their life. I am not saying that that applies to every child, but the Scottish Government’s ideal of early intervention and a preventative approach is the way forward.
We have to consider some of the things that young people told the committee. A perfect example was another person in his mid-20s who also had a younger brother, who was a teenager. When we saw the two of them, the older brother felt guilty about the fact that he had not been there to support and look after his family and deal with the issues.
The younger brother had been taken into care earlier and he was, to use a local parochialism, quite gallus about the whole situation. That was a perfect example of how to make things work, given the difference between the two brothers. The younger sibling dealt with the situation a lot better because he was taken into care a lot quicker; the older sibling felt guilty and took it upon himself to deal with the situation.
I welcome the minister’s commitment to improving outcomes for children and young people. The GIRFEC principles in the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill can make a difference. If we use those principles and they are legislated for at local authority level, that might ensure that in future young men like the older brother we met do not feel the way that he did. I am glad that he was able to open up to us, because it made it obvious to us how he felt and what a difference his situation had made to his life.
Another issue that came up was the fact that social work professionals are often promoted and taken away from the front line or leave to go into other roles with children’s charities or other projects. They are still doing good work, but their expertise is taken away from the front-line jobs that we really need people of their experience to do. The Scottish Government and local authorities have to work together to ensure that we retain such staff, because we cannot afford to lose that expertise.
In my days in the motor industry we used to say, “You never promote your best salesman, or salesperson; you always ensure that they are out there doing the job.” It should be almost the same in social work. We must have a way to ensure that good social workers stay at the front line in the profession and continue to do good work. We must give them the support that they need as well.
I mentioned early intervention and prevention. For me, the important aspect of the bill is that there is scope for early intervention and prevention. I said last week that I had been at the Polmont young offenders institution to find out about the Barnardo’s Scotland outside in project, which has made a big difference to the young people there. Many of them were there because they had come from broken homes, were in care and a violent situation had inevitably arisen at some point. When we started talking about things and discussing their issues, they thought that what is in the bill could have made a difference, not to every child, but to some of them. That is the way to go, because if we are to get it right for every child in Scotland and ensure that Scotland is the best place in the world to grow up, we have to make sure that everyone gets an opportunity, regardless of their background.
I agree with Jayne Baxter that there has to be a change of national attitude when it comes to looked-after children. We have to get away from the idea that they are other people’s problems. It is almost like the corporate parenting thing again; we are the ones who have to take on the responsibility.
We must also think differently. The Government needs to work in partnership with local authorities and find solutions to the problems and challenges that we face.
I welcome a lot of the work that we have done. One of the things that I really liked about the inquiry was meeting the young people who have gone through the system; listening to their evidence made it real. I hope that, having listened to it, we will move forward and make things better for children in Scotland.
15:29
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08480, in the name of Stewart Maxwell, on decision making on whether to take children into care.I call St...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Today’s debate comes soon after the stage 1 debate on the Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill. That discussion demonstrated strong cross-party support ...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
I welcome this afternoon’s debate, which the Education and Culture Committee has brought to the chamber following its recent inquiry. I congratulate the comm...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
One of the ways to help young children in particular is childcare. Today, we have learned that the Scottish Government will receive £300 million in consequen...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
We have made clear within our bill our commitment to supporting children in their earliest years and we have set out our aspiration with the 600 hours of chi...
Neil Findlay
Lab
Will the minister take an intervention?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Neil Findlay needs to consider his tone during this debate, which is about trying to work constructively together on this important issue.Improvement of corp...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
As I am the newest member of the Education and Culture Committee, some might say that I had the luxury of considering the final report without having to unde...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I put on record apologies from my colleague Mary Scanlon, who was due to participate in the debate. As a result of the travel situation she has had to head b...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The member will recall the debate that we had in the committee about the fact that early intervention does not relate simply to the early years. Does she sha...
Liz Smith
Con
I absolutely share that concern—I do not think that we could doubt the evidence that was given to the committee on that point. However, we have had other car...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We now turn to the open debate. At this stage, I can offer speeches of around six minutes, with time for interventions.15:22
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
The debate comes on the back of the Education and Culture Committee’s extensive inquiry into decision making on whether to take young children into care. As ...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the committee for taking on this challenging and contentious subject and for producing such a thoughtful and, I hope, helpful report.Given the broad ...
Liam McArthur
LD
One of the other things that we heard about early intervention is that it is not just about intervening with a view to taking a child away; it is about arriv...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I entirely agree with Mr McArthur. Although I was highlighting acute need, I will return to that point and the need for quick support, early intervention and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
As members will be aware, there is quite a bit of time in hand, which will allow for interventions and even the development of themes and ideas. I now call C...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Presiding Officer, thank you for that challenge at the start of my speech. I begin by associating myself with Stewart Maxwell’s comments about the witnesses ...
Liz Smith
Con
Clare Adamson has pointed to the frustration that I feel, and I do not deny that we have come some way towards addressing the problem. However, one of the mo...
Clare Adamson
SNP
I absolutely agree, and I have had the same experience when listening to such comments. However, we must recognise that the committee’s initial inquiry ident...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
The issue of looked-after children and young people and how we improve the life experiences and outcomes for that group has dominated the work of the Educati...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I have listened to Liam McArthur’s speech very carefully and I agree with what he says. Does he share my concern about the decision-making process that leads...
Liam McArthur
LD
The committee convener is absolutely right on that point. It was one of the most striking aspects of the evidence that we received. Such situations almost se...
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
SNP
The inquiry has in some respects been difficult for the Education and Culture Committee. I for one hoped that, somewhere among the wealth of information and ...
Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
I rise to speak in the debate with little expertise in this subject, but with a great interest in it. That interest stems partly from my years as the chair o...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will the member give way?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I will, but I probably will not understand Mr Macintosh’s point.
Ken Macintosh
Lab
My question is simply this: why would it be helpful for my six children to have a named person?
Fiona McLeod
SNP
I am a parent, like Ken Macintosh, and we never know when we might find ourselves vulnerable as a family. I do my absolute best as a parent, but that is not ...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
Will Fiona McLeod give way on that point?