Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 04 February 2014
04 Feb 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill
We have gone over some of this already, but it appears that, for example, somebody with traditional committed Christian or Muslim beliefs cannot be a registrar in the public sector.
I do not think that that is the Government’s intention, and I accept that some safeguards have been built in. I also accept that we can never have 100 per cent safeguards or know where the courts will go in future. I am therefore disappointed at the Parliament’s response to the amendments on that issue that were proposed today.
There are parts of the bill that are not controversial. The controversial part is clearly same-sex marriage. However, the bill comes against a backdrop of questions about the place of religion in society, which will be an issue in the future whether or not Scotland gains independence.
There is a clear trend away from religion these days. Society seems to be becoming increasingly secular and humanist. However, it is also interesting to look a little below the surface and see how people react at times of stress and loss.
We did not take evidence from the Scottish Independent Celebrants Association, but it has spoken to MSPs in Parliament. Independent celebrants report how many people approach them for a funeral not wanting a full church or religious service but still wanting a hymn and a prayer, which the humanists cannot provide.
It was also interesting how many people speaking about the recent helicopter crash who would not normally be seen as religious talked about our thoughts and prayers being with the families of victims and attended church services and mass.
We are in an untidy kind of society that is perhaps not as Christian as I would like or as humanist as Patrick Harvie would like, but we need to recognise where people are at. For many, that includes a bit of faith and religion, at least below the surface.
The relationship between church and state is part of the debate as well. I am clear that church and state should be separate and that the church should not be in a privileged position, as it has been in the past—neither the church nor the state benefited from that.
The bill is not perfect and could have been improved more along the way. However, the key point for me and others is that we may well be, and probably are, opening the door for more discrimination against religious and other people who think a bit differently from the rest of society. I hope that I am proved wrong in that, but the signs are not encouraging.
For that reason, I feel forced to vote against the bill.
17:22
I do not think that that is the Government’s intention, and I accept that some safeguards have been built in. I also accept that we can never have 100 per cent safeguards or know where the courts will go in future. I am therefore disappointed at the Parliament’s response to the amendments on that issue that were proposed today.
There are parts of the bill that are not controversial. The controversial part is clearly same-sex marriage. However, the bill comes against a backdrop of questions about the place of religion in society, which will be an issue in the future whether or not Scotland gains independence.
There is a clear trend away from religion these days. Society seems to be becoming increasingly secular and humanist. However, it is also interesting to look a little below the surface and see how people react at times of stress and loss.
We did not take evidence from the Scottish Independent Celebrants Association, but it has spoken to MSPs in Parliament. Independent celebrants report how many people approach them for a funeral not wanting a full church or religious service but still wanting a hymn and a prayer, which the humanists cannot provide.
It was also interesting how many people speaking about the recent helicopter crash who would not normally be seen as religious talked about our thoughts and prayers being with the families of victims and attended church services and mass.
We are in an untidy kind of society that is perhaps not as Christian as I would like or as humanist as Patrick Harvie would like, but we need to recognise where people are at. For many, that includes a bit of faith and religion, at least below the surface.
The relationship between church and state is part of the debate as well. I am clear that church and state should be separate and that the church should not be in a privileged position, as it has been in the past—neither the church nor the state benefited from that.
The bill is not perfect and could have been improved more along the way. However, the key point for me and others is that we may well be, and probably are, opening the door for more discrimination against religious and other people who think a bit differently from the rest of society. I hope that I am proved wrong in that, but the signs are not encouraging.
For that reason, I feel forced to vote against the bill.
17:22
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
Before we start, I say to Parliament that, as a consequence of the earlier decision to extend the debate on amendments by 30 minutes, decision time will also...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Alex Neil)
SNP
I am pleased to open the stage 3 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.I thank the members of the Equal Opportunities Committee; its c...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Cabinet secretary, you just destroyed all my calculations and I will have to start all over again.16:19
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Like the cabinet secretary, I am pleased to participate in the stage 3 debate on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill.I commend the members and...
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
When this parliamentary year started and we came back from the summer recess in full anticipation of passing momentous legislation on same-sex marriage, my p...
Jackson Carlaw
Con
—but in his own time.On re-reading that Official Report I saw that there were also eloquent speeches from Nigel Don and John Mason, who put the alternative p...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We now move to the open debate. We are heavily subscribed, notwithstanding the cabinet secretary’s efforts. I advise members that the first few speakers can ...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
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Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I support same-sex marriage as a matter of principle. Not long after I was elected to the Parliament, I was proud to pledge my support to the equal marriage ...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Members will not be surprised to discover—if they do not know already—that I will vote with the minority at decision time tonight. However, I have no intenti...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
Will the member accept that it should be the quality rather than the quantity that matters when it comes to amendments?
Alex Johnstone
Con
Indeed. That is very much the case, as the way in which the evidence has been treated throughout the process indicates.As I said, I am disappointed that we w...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The next speeches will be of five minutes.16:51
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
SNP
I start by responding to the point that Alex Johnstone just made. I would have thought that, if anything, the bill would strengthen marriage because it makes...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Tonight, I will be out of step with the majority of the Parliament, and I regret that. However, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak at what is undoubt...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
Will the member give way?
Richard Lyle
SNP
No, I will not. I have only five minutes.There are adoptive parents out there who are frightened that their opposition to same-sex marriage will be misunders...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
You need to bring your remarks to a close.
Richard Lyle
SNP
That happened before the law is changed.I know that I will not win tonight, but I will vote in line with my conscience, in the way that I have always stood u...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
The debate is no less welcome for being long awaited. At decision time, Scotland can become the 17th or the 26th country or territory around the world—it dep...
Linda Fabiani (East Kilbride) (SNP)
SNP
It is an absolute delight to be in the chamber today and to pass the bill very soon, I hope.I thank not only all those who have worked hard to bring to fruit...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
It will have to be brief, Ms Fabiani.
Linda Fabiani
SNP
Absolutely. The Equality Network is saying that there is still a lot more work to do to tackle prejudice and to ensure that LGBT people receive equal treatme...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD)
LD
Fairness and equality run through the veins of every true Liberal Democrat I know. We want Scotland to be one of the fairest and most equal places in the wor...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
The process has been a long one. I thank members, the clerks and others who have helped with a professional attitude throughout. I first said something publi...
Jim Hume
LD
I do not like to say that the member is scaremongering, but does he have any evidence at all of religious organisations being squeezed out?
John Mason
SNP
We have gone over some of this already, but it appears that, for example, somebody with traditional committed Christian or Muslim beliefs cannot be a registr...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
I thank the various groups that provided briefings for the debate. One line in the Equality Network briefing said that it would make Scotland fair and more e...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
You need to make it brief.
John Finnie
Ind
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