Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 22 January 2014
22 Jan 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
A number of important points have been brought out in this very brief debate. Sandra White made the point about the need to treat forced marriage as we do other abusive practices within the family. The LCM is obviously intended to bring the deterrent of a significant maximum sentence. I agree very much with the concerns that have been expressed that there was virtually no consultation on the increase of the sentence from two to seven years.
The committee was advised about the slow process of domestic abuse being recognised as a serious offence and the role that legislation and prosecution can play in effecting cultural change. Of course, the current legislation will send out a message about the unacceptability of forced marriage. As was mentioned in the debate, evidence from Police Scotland indicated that there have been seven forced marriage protection orders, and I note that most of those cases came to light through child protection procedures. However, support organisations will have received considerably more inquiries about help that did not result in formal FMPOs. It is therefore difficult to assess the impact of the current legislation, which has been in force only for a couple of years. The minister advised the committee that evidence from other countries shows that, where forced marriage is a criminal offence, it results in increased reporting, but we do not know what will happen in Scotland.
John Pentland stressed the need to comply with the international obligations and the need for consistency. I recognise Margaret Mitchell’s point that many aspects of Scots law are different from the law in England and Wales. However, theoretically at least, where members of an extended family live in different parts of the UK, a legislative framework that was perceived to be less stringent in respect of forced marriage could result in family members in Scotland becoming the instigators of forced marriage because the penalties were less.
Christine Grahame mentioned the problems with the LCM process. I think that we were all frustrated by that, and indeed by the number of amendments that kept coming up. Returning to a point that she made, I note that the problem is the way in which the civil and criminal systems work in tandem. That will have to be resolved in the UK as well as in Scotland if we are required by the Istanbul convention to make forced marriage a criminal offence, so we need to concentrate on how the problem can be resolved in practice.
If a legislative route is required, the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is nearing completion of stage 1 in the Parliament and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has signalled that he will lodge amendments to end automatic early release for some crimes, for example. I would think that, if required, there is an opportunity to amend the bill further to ensure that we take account of victims’ rights to have their desires prioritised when it comes to whether cases go through the civil or the criminal process.
I was interested in Malcolm Chisholm’s points on ratification. Interestingly, none of them was raised in evidence to the committee. The issues came up today, in this debate. I am not absolutely clear whether the legislation is required to be in place prior to ratification or whether it would be appropriate to consider it after ratification, so I, too, will be interested to learn the minister’s view on that issue.
This has not been a particularly happy experience. I do not think that any member of any party has been particularly happy about the way in which the LCM has proceeded but, to use a phrase that I do not particularly like, we are where we are. We are possibly now at a stage at which the only way forward is to agree to the LCM but to take the necessary advice on what safeguards must be put in place thereafter to ensure that victims’ wishes are always respected.
17:38
The committee was advised about the slow process of domestic abuse being recognised as a serious offence and the role that legislation and prosecution can play in effecting cultural change. Of course, the current legislation will send out a message about the unacceptability of forced marriage. As was mentioned in the debate, evidence from Police Scotland indicated that there have been seven forced marriage protection orders, and I note that most of those cases came to light through child protection procedures. However, support organisations will have received considerably more inquiries about help that did not result in formal FMPOs. It is therefore difficult to assess the impact of the current legislation, which has been in force only for a couple of years. The minister advised the committee that evidence from other countries shows that, where forced marriage is a criminal offence, it results in increased reporting, but we do not know what will happen in Scotland.
John Pentland stressed the need to comply with the international obligations and the need for consistency. I recognise Margaret Mitchell’s point that many aspects of Scots law are different from the law in England and Wales. However, theoretically at least, where members of an extended family live in different parts of the UK, a legislative framework that was perceived to be less stringent in respect of forced marriage could result in family members in Scotland becoming the instigators of forced marriage because the penalties were less.
Christine Grahame mentioned the problems with the LCM process. I think that we were all frustrated by that, and indeed by the number of amendments that kept coming up. Returning to a point that she made, I note that the problem is the way in which the civil and criminal systems work in tandem. That will have to be resolved in the UK as well as in Scotland if we are required by the Istanbul convention to make forced marriage a criminal offence, so we need to concentrate on how the problem can be resolved in practice.
If a legislative route is required, the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is nearing completion of stage 1 in the Parliament and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice has signalled that he will lodge amendments to end automatic early release for some crimes, for example. I would think that, if required, there is an opportunity to amend the bill further to ensure that we take account of victims’ rights to have their desires prioritised when it comes to whether cases go through the civil or the criminal process.
I was interested in Malcolm Chisholm’s points on ratification. Interestingly, none of them was raised in evidence to the committee. The issues came up today, in this debate. I am not absolutely clear whether the legislation is required to be in place prior to ratification or whether it would be appropriate to consider it after ratification, so I, too, will be interested to learn the minister’s view on that issue.
This has not been a particularly happy experience. I do not think that any member of any party has been particularly happy about the way in which the LCM has proceeded but, to use a phrase that I do not particularly like, we are where we are. We are possibly now at a stage at which the only way forward is to agree to the LCM but to take the necessary advice on what safeguards must be put in place thereafter to ensure that victims’ wishes are always respected.
17:38
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08797, in the name of Shona Robison, on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, which is Unit...
The Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport (Shona Robison)
SNP
Forced marriage is, thankfully, not an issue that affects the majority of people in Scotland. However, it is a blight on those communities where it still hap...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
Is it not the case that the UK Government has signed but not ratified the convention, and that it becomes legally binding only when ratified? If the minister...
Shona Robison
SNP
We are clear that, in order to ratify the convention, forced marriage requires to become a criminal offence. The Istanbul convention was, in effect, a game c...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
Only one part of the legislative consent memorandum is contentious and that is the proposals on forced marriage.In starting, I think that it is important to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you for your brevity.17:15
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
The Justice Committee report on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill legislative consent memorandum did not make a recommendation on the provis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. If members could speak for not too long, that would be helpful.17:18
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to keep my speech as short as possible.As a member of the Justice Committee, to which consideration of the LCM fell,...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
The LCM’s proposals on forced marriage proved very contentious. The shortcomings of the process were such that the committee decided not to recommend support...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
The Justice Committee requested time for the debate, and I thank the Parliamentary Bureau for allowing us to have it. All members of the committee were conce...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
In 2005, I introduced a consultation on forced marriage and listened to the views of violence against women organisations, such as Scottish Women’s Aid, Hema...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the closing speeches. I call Margaret Mitchell—four minutes, please.17:30
Margaret Mitchell
Con
This debate, which is an unusual one, was triggered by the Justice Committee’s decision not to make a recommendation on the inclusion of forced marriage with...
Elaine Murray
Lab
A number of important points have been brought out in this very brief debate. Sandra White made the point about the need to treat forced marriage as we do ot...
Shona Robison
SNP
I thank everyone for their contributions to the debate. Although we might not all agree on the details, I have a strong feeling of the commitment that member...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
The point is that there is time, especially given the information that Malcolm Chisholm supplied, to look again and see whether a Scottish solution can be fo...
Shona Robison
SNP
I find that comment slightly ironic, given the UK Government’s clear position. As for Malcolm Chisholm’s point about ratification, the UK cannot ratify the c...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
There is disagreement on the legal advice, because that is not the legal advice that Scottish Women’s Aid has received. However, if the minister takes that v...
Shona Robison
SNP
We are looking at forced marriage today. We are clear that, to ratify the convention, we require to criminalise forced marriage. The other articles are anoth...