Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 December 2013
17 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill
It is always good to welcome a new tax, although I take the point that the landfill tax is, in fact, a replacement tax and that it is probable that many people will see little immediate change. I accept that it is a relatively small tax and that we hope that it will become smaller over time. Even with it, only about 15 per cent of taxes that are paid in Scotland will come under this Parliament’s control. However, it is still an important tax, not least because it brings together environment policy and revenue raising. It is much to be welcomed that the tax and the fines to be paid by those who carry out unauthorised disposals are to be introduced.
Obviously, as with all taxes in Scotland, we need to be aware of what our neighbours and competitors are doing. We might want to have a higher landfill tax for the good of the environment, for example, but there is little point in having that if it only shifts waste across the border and we suffer a loss of revenue. Therefore, the statement that Scottish rates will mirror UK rates and that the Scottish rate will be no lower than the UK rate in 2015 is pretty fair in the circumstances.
The rate of tax is still to be decided, of course—that has already been mentioned—but a number of red herrings are swimming around in that regard. Going forward, there is no certainty about UK tax rates, so neither businesses nor individuals can have any more faith in a UK Administration than in a Scottish one. In fact, it could be argued that John Swinney is much more boring—I am sorry; I meant to say more stable—than George Osborne, so we can expect more sensible tax decisions in Scotland than we might get in the UK.
We still have to wait and see whether there will be sensible decisions on the block grant adjustment. The odd thing about the landfill tax is that, if it is successful, the tax take will fall, and that must be taken into account when the block grant adjustment is made. All three block grant adjustments for the three taxes that we are taking over are the subject of negotiation between the Scottish and UK Governments.
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill, which has been mentioned, was introduced on Friday, and I am certainly looking forward to considering it in detail in the Finance Committee. Tax avoidance is a topical issue, so we have the opportunity to put down some markers on that. Trying to achieve fairness can lead to complex legislation and that, in turn, can mean loopholes for those who can afford expensive tax advice, so we need to emphasise simplicity and tax legislation that is clear to all, including the courts. It is also encouraging that revenue Scotland is expected to cost around 25 per cent less than the cost of the same work being done by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
In conclusion, the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill is the second of the proposed tax bills stemming from the Scotland Act 2012. I very much welcome the fact that such control is coming to Scotland. We have to accept that we have limited room for manoeuvre on landfill tax, but we need to tackle the huge problem of waste that we face, and the bill gives the opportunity to do so.
15:42
Obviously, as with all taxes in Scotland, we need to be aware of what our neighbours and competitors are doing. We might want to have a higher landfill tax for the good of the environment, for example, but there is little point in having that if it only shifts waste across the border and we suffer a loss of revenue. Therefore, the statement that Scottish rates will mirror UK rates and that the Scottish rate will be no lower than the UK rate in 2015 is pretty fair in the circumstances.
The rate of tax is still to be decided, of course—that has already been mentioned—but a number of red herrings are swimming around in that regard. Going forward, there is no certainty about UK tax rates, so neither businesses nor individuals can have any more faith in a UK Administration than in a Scottish one. In fact, it could be argued that John Swinney is much more boring—I am sorry; I meant to say more stable—than George Osborne, so we can expect more sensible tax decisions in Scotland than we might get in the UK.
We still have to wait and see whether there will be sensible decisions on the block grant adjustment. The odd thing about the landfill tax is that, if it is successful, the tax take will fall, and that must be taken into account when the block grant adjustment is made. All three block grant adjustments for the three taxes that we are taking over are the subject of negotiation between the Scottish and UK Governments.
The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill, which has been mentioned, was introduced on Friday, and I am certainly looking forward to considering it in detail in the Finance Committee. Tax avoidance is a topical issue, so we have the opportunity to put down some markers on that. Trying to achieve fairness can lead to complex legislation and that, in turn, can mean loopholes for those who can afford expensive tax advice, so we need to emphasise simplicity and tax legislation that is clear to all, including the courts. It is also encouraging that revenue Scotland is expected to cost around 25 per cent less than the cost of the same work being done by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
In conclusion, the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill is the second of the proposed tax bills stemming from the Scotland Act 2012. I very much welcome the fact that such control is coming to Scotland. We have to accept that we have limited room for manoeuvre on landfill tax, but we need to tackle the huge problem of waste that we face, and the bill gives the opportunity to do so.
15:42
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08609, in the name of John Swinney, on the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to spe...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
I welcome the fact that we have reached the stage 3 debate on the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill, which is the second bill establishing devolved taxes in Scotl...
Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP)
SNP
I put on record my thanks to the Government for the way in which it has engaged with me on a matter concerning my constituents in Blanefield. We are grateful...
John Swinney
SNP
I welcome Mr Crawford’s comments. He has advanced the interests of his constituents in the Blanefield area using all means available to him through the legis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
There is no time in hand. I call Iain Gray. You have a maximum of seven minutes, but I would like you to take less than that if possible.15:26
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
In the stage 1 debate, I referred to the landfill tax as a new tax. In his closing speech in that debate, the cabinet secretary corrected me—it is, of course...
The Minister for Environment and Climate Change (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
Would the member accept that even in the worst-case scenario that is set out in “Low Carbon Scotland: Meeting our Emissions Reduction Targets 2013-2027. The ...
Iain Gray
Lab
I think that the minister has more confidence in RPP2 than I do, but let us see what happens as time unfolds.That said, on diversion from landfill and increa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I now call Gavin Brown, who has five minutes or less.15:33
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I think that the bill commands broad support across the chamber. It was a pretty good bill at stage 1 and it has been strengthened marginally during the stag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are in your final minute.
Gavin Brown
Con
However, it is worth while to think more carefully about the ultimate policy objective of that. Is it simply to tax the same level of investigations as we cu...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I am afraid that you must close.
Gavin Brown
Con
It is worth while to reflect on that. We will certainly support the bill this evening.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We turn to the open debate. I am afraid that I can only give speeches of three minutes to four members. I apologise to the fifth member, whom I will not be a...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
It is always good to welcome a new tax, although I take the point that the landfill tax is, in fact, a replacement tax and that it is probable that many peop...
Michael McMahon (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
Lab
Like the land and buildings transaction tax, the Landfill Tax (Scotland) Bill has been very technical, but it has had a remarkably straightforward and consen...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
As convener of the lead committee, I first thank the clerks, officials and witnesses who helped the Finance Committee in its deliberations as the bill progre...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
An important argument in favour of increasing levels of fiscal devolution is that it can incentivise economic activity that brings more revenues to this Parl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I apologise to Jean Urquhart, whom I have been unable to call. Gavin Brown, you can have a maximum of four minutes.15:51
Gavin Brown
Con
This has been a pretty good, if short, debate, which did not differ enormously from the debate at stage 1. That reflects the fact that very little has change...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Iain Gray. I apologise that I can give you only five minutes.15:55
Iain Gray
Lab
This has been a short but interesting debate. It has also been a bit of a Donald Rumsfeld debate because a lot of known unknowns have been discussed. We do n...
John Mason
SNP
I wonder whether the member will accept my main point, which was that we can put more faith in John Swinney than we can in George Osborne.
Iain Gray
Lab
The degree to which we have to put faith in Mr Swinney is exactly the point to which I am coming. I thought that Mr Mason was rising to apologise to the cabi...
John Swinney
SNP
It is a mark of the fact that there has been no real division on the substance of the debate that Mr Mason has been harangued by Mr Brown and Mr Gray. We sho...
Gavin Brown
Con
Does the cabinet secretary accept that one reason for having a three-year lead time was so that we could look at the twice-yearly estimates until a position ...
John Swinney
SNP
It is a lot more stable now because the original estimate was complete baloney. If the member goes back to the December 2012 forecast, he will see that liter...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
SNP
I wonder whether that would encourage us to take other OBR forecasts, for instance for oil and gas revenues, with a very large pinch of salt.
John Swinney
SNP
We have to take care on a lot of those issues. Mr MacKenzie knows that the Scottish Government has a different view from the OBR on oil and gas predictions. ...