Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 07 November 2013
07 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
No—I refuse to mention them again. Ms Grahame should just sit there. She has had her shot.
Anyway, use of affirmative procedure will provide some parliamentary protection.
The two-tier structure is quite interesting, given that over the months we constantly complained about people going into their silos and using all their own terminology. However, everyone seems to be in agreement regarding the two-tier structure and how it will work; it seems to be the right way. Again, previous speeches have explained the matter better than I could; members will not hear my description of it, as I hope to run out of time fairly shortly.
Much has been made about the suggestion by the Lord President that he would name Lady Smith as president of the tribunals. I welcome the clarification that has been provided by the minister that that is not an appointment but an assignment. That is important because that was, as far as I am aware, the first time we have heard that description. When the Lord President gave evidence, I accepted that Lady Smith is more than qualified for the post—I certainly would not argue against her credentials or suitability—but it seems to be a little strange to see a name being presented for the position before the legislation to establish the post is in place.
On the people who sit on tribunals, there were a number of comments, including on whether the term “judge” should be used to refer to the person who presides over the tribunal. In one respect, it may be useful to keep a clear distinction between a court and a tribunal—I understand that point and I think that it is quite important. Certainly, as a matter of symbolism, it is perhaps a better idea to lose the title “judge”. I will avoid using the quotations that three or four other members have used.
That leaves me to say only that, as Elaine Murray mentioned, the legislation deals with a relatively small amount of work, but at least—if I can be a little bit parochial—should we vote yes next year, we will have plenty of scope to bring the other tribunals into the system.
15:20
Anyway, use of affirmative procedure will provide some parliamentary protection.
The two-tier structure is quite interesting, given that over the months we constantly complained about people going into their silos and using all their own terminology. However, everyone seems to be in agreement regarding the two-tier structure and how it will work; it seems to be the right way. Again, previous speeches have explained the matter better than I could; members will not hear my description of it, as I hope to run out of time fairly shortly.
Much has been made about the suggestion by the Lord President that he would name Lady Smith as president of the tribunals. I welcome the clarification that has been provided by the minister that that is not an appointment but an assignment. That is important because that was, as far as I am aware, the first time we have heard that description. When the Lord President gave evidence, I accepted that Lady Smith is more than qualified for the post—I certainly would not argue against her credentials or suitability—but it seems to be a little strange to see a name being presented for the position before the legislation to establish the post is in place.
On the people who sit on tribunals, there were a number of comments, including on whether the term “judge” should be used to refer to the person who presides over the tribunal. In one respect, it may be useful to keep a clear distinction between a court and a tribunal—I understand that point and I think that it is quite important. Certainly, as a matter of symbolism, it is perhaps a better idea to lose the title “judge”. I will avoid using the quotations that three or four other members have used.
That leaves me to say only that, as Elaine Murray mentioned, the legislation deals with a relatively small amount of work, but at least—if I can be a little bit parochial—should we vote yes next year, we will have plenty of scope to bring the other tribunals into the system.
15:20
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08145, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill.
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its scrutiny of the bill at stage 1 and for th...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
The minister says that there will be an assignment, rather than an appointment. There is public expectation that the post and person specifications will be c...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
We want to ensure that the Lord President’s role is paramount. Members need to keep that in mind. I do not want to get into the business of defining matters ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I shall say this very slowly: I am amending parts of my speech.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I thought that that might be the case.Members need to keep it in mind that each tribunal was created by an act of Parliament. They are all required to operat...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, minister. If “courtification” is not a word, it should be. I call Christine Grahame to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee—you have 10 minute...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Heavens.It says in my notes, “Welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate”. I think that that might be going a bit too far. I speak on behalf of the Justi...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sure that Mr Stevenson will tell me about an even greater tumbleweed debate.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether the member remembers the Court of Session Act 1693—Laughter.. It specifically says that“no person presume to speake after the Lords begin to...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I liked the last bit, but the idea that I was around in 1693 is a bit wounding.By way of introduction, I will take members on a brief journey through the mix...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
It is assignment.
Christine Grahame
SNP
Thank you.The president will be responsible for the efficient disposal of tribunal business. Currently, only a senator of the College of Justice can be assig...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Courtification.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I will need to develop adjectives and adverbs now.We concluded that how legal members of tribunals are referred to was a matter for individual tribunals to d...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, Ms Grahame. It might be helpful to members if I advise that we have a little time in hand. If members take interventions, the Presiding Officers w...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
The Scottish Parliament has, over the years, debated many bills that have attracted significant media and public attention. Bills have given the entitlement ...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether it would be helpful to look at the way that the Scottish Parliament information centre has described what a tribunal is. It seems to me that...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention. That was along the lines of some of the suggestions that were made to the committee, and I think that we will be kee...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
As tribunals form an important part of our civil justice system, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the general principles of the T...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
I would be delighted.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
According to that committee, a tribunal is“A body which resolves disputes between citizens and state and between private parties by making binding decisions ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. There is a modest amount of time in hand for interventions.15:14
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I am not terribly sure that I am delighted to be speaking here today, but it is my last hurrah as a member of the Justice Committee. There is an element of d...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Mention them again.
Colin Keir
SNP
No—I refuse to mention them again. Ms Grahame should just sit there. She has had her shot.Anyway, use of affirmative procedure will provide some parliamentar...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
Sometimes it takes weeks to hear repetition in the chamber, but when it does we tend to think, “Oh, no! Not that again.” However, we are less than an hour in...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and I declare my interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.As members are aware, the UK Government ha...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Will Roderick Campbell give way?
Roderick Campbell
SNP
I am not sure that I have time, to be honest, but I will give way if the intervention is brief.