Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 07 November 2013
07 Nov 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tribunals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I liked the last bit, but the idea that I was around in 1693 is a bit wounding.
By way of introduction, I will take members on a brief journey through the mixed landscape of tribunals. For the purposes of the debate, and indeed the legislation, those tribunals will be in the devolved areas, which of course is only 2 per cent of the total. They include the Additional Support Needs Tribunal, which considers references made by parents and young people against decisions by local authorities regarding additional support for learning needs. In certain circumstances, it will hear placement requests. I know that things have improved since then, but some years ago I attended one of those tribunals with a constituent, only to find the council armed to the gunwales with solicitors, and parents having only me on their team—and a silenced me, at that. It was not very balanced and was quite intimidating.
There is the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland, which, as the minister said, considers issues of compulsory detention under the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003—taking away individuals’ rights.
There is the private rented housing panel, which sets about resolving issues between landlords and tenants, and the home owner housing panel, which aims to protect home owners by providing minimum standards for property factors and, broadly, land managers.
I know that members are familiar with all these tribunals, but many people do not know about them until they have to use them. They have a problem, they go on the internet and they find out that the tribunals exist. It is all pretty nitty-gritty, basic and practical stuff, which quite often involves the citizen and the state, in the form of the local authority or indeed any other organisation. At the other end, as the minister said, is the Lands Tribunal for Scotland, which is really more like a court in its processes and culture.
As I have said, the tribunals are very disparate; many of them have evolved over time. That is a good reason for the bill to draw them into some structure or order, while maintaining the range of processes and the culture of the informal of some and the very formal—perhaps of the Lands Tribunal—while building in accessibility and maintaining a firm line between tribunals and courts. That is important.
The committee supports the general principles of the bill. However, we highlight a number of areas, which the minister has already sabotaged, that could be improved to ensure that a balance is achieved between streamlining the current system without losing individual expertise within the existing tribunal. Reserved tribunals are not included in the new structure. The United Kingdom Government has put on hold plans to devolve reserved tribunals for the time being. I repeat—my first but not last repeat—that devolved tribunals account for only around 2 per cent of Scottish tribunals. Witnesses, including the Faculty of Advocates and Citizens Advice Scotland, recommended that those reserved tribunals also be included to ensure the effectiveness of the system and make the process clearer for the user.
On judicial leadership, we welcome the designation of the Lord President as head of the Scottish tribunals and agree that that would bring strong judicial leadership across the system. However, as I said, we had concerns about the appointment to the post of president of tribunals, which will happen through what I think is called the signing. I am not sure whether another term was used.
By way of introduction, I will take members on a brief journey through the mixed landscape of tribunals. For the purposes of the debate, and indeed the legislation, those tribunals will be in the devolved areas, which of course is only 2 per cent of the total. They include the Additional Support Needs Tribunal, which considers references made by parents and young people against decisions by local authorities regarding additional support for learning needs. In certain circumstances, it will hear placement requests. I know that things have improved since then, but some years ago I attended one of those tribunals with a constituent, only to find the council armed to the gunwales with solicitors, and parents having only me on their team—and a silenced me, at that. It was not very balanced and was quite intimidating.
There is the Mental Health Tribunal for Scotland, which, as the minister said, considers issues of compulsory detention under the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003—taking away individuals’ rights.
There is the private rented housing panel, which sets about resolving issues between landlords and tenants, and the home owner housing panel, which aims to protect home owners by providing minimum standards for property factors and, broadly, land managers.
I know that members are familiar with all these tribunals, but many people do not know about them until they have to use them. They have a problem, they go on the internet and they find out that the tribunals exist. It is all pretty nitty-gritty, basic and practical stuff, which quite often involves the citizen and the state, in the form of the local authority or indeed any other organisation. At the other end, as the minister said, is the Lands Tribunal for Scotland, which is really more like a court in its processes and culture.
As I have said, the tribunals are very disparate; many of them have evolved over time. That is a good reason for the bill to draw them into some structure or order, while maintaining the range of processes and the culture of the informal of some and the very formal—perhaps of the Lands Tribunal—while building in accessibility and maintaining a firm line between tribunals and courts. That is important.
The committee supports the general principles of the bill. However, we highlight a number of areas, which the minister has already sabotaged, that could be improved to ensure that a balance is achieved between streamlining the current system without losing individual expertise within the existing tribunal. Reserved tribunals are not included in the new structure. The United Kingdom Government has put on hold plans to devolve reserved tribunals for the time being. I repeat—my first but not last repeat—that devolved tribunals account for only around 2 per cent of Scottish tribunals. Witnesses, including the Faculty of Advocates and Citizens Advice Scotland, recommended that those reserved tribunals also be included to ensure the effectiveness of the system and make the process clearer for the user.
On judicial leadership, we welcome the designation of the Lord President as head of the Scottish tribunals and agree that that would bring strong judicial leadership across the system. However, as I said, we had concerns about the appointment to the post of president of tribunals, which will happen through what I think is called the signing. I am not sure whether another term was used.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08145, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill.
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Roseanna Cunningham)
SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee for its scrutiny of the bill at stage 1 and for th...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
The minister says that there will be an assignment, rather than an appointment. There is public expectation that the post and person specifications will be c...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
We want to ensure that the Lord President’s role is paramount. Members need to keep that in mind. I do not want to get into the business of defining matters ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I shall say this very slowly: I am amending parts of my speech.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I thought that that might be the case.Members need to keep it in mind that each tribunal was created by an act of Parliament. They are all required to operat...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, minister. If “courtification” is not a word, it should be. I call Christine Grahame to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee—you have 10 minute...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Heavens.It says in my notes, “Welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate”. I think that that might be going a bit too far. I speak on behalf of the Justi...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sure that Mr Stevenson will tell me about an even greater tumbleweed debate.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether the member remembers the Court of Session Act 1693—Laughter.. It specifically says that“no person presume to speake after the Lords begin to...
Christine Grahame
SNP
I liked the last bit, but the idea that I was around in 1693 is a bit wounding.By way of introduction, I will take members on a brief journey through the mix...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
It is assignment.
Christine Grahame
SNP
Thank you.The president will be responsible for the efficient disposal of tribunal business. Currently, only a senator of the College of Justice can be assig...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Courtification.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I will need to develop adjectives and adverbs now.We concluded that how legal members of tribunals are referred to was a matter for individual tribunals to d...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Thank you, Ms Grahame. It might be helpful to members if I advise that we have a little time in hand. If members take interventions, the Presiding Officers w...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
The Scottish Parliament has, over the years, debated many bills that have attracted significant media and public attention. Bills have given the entitlement ...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I wonder whether it would be helpful to look at the way that the Scottish Parliament information centre has described what a tribunal is. It seems to me that...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I thank the member for his intervention. That was along the lines of some of the suggestions that were made to the committee, and I think that we will be kee...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
As tribunals form an important part of our civil justice system, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this stage 1 debate on the general principles of the T...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
I would be delighted.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
According to that committee, a tribunal is“A body which resolves disputes between citizens and state and between private parties by making binding decisions ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We move to the open debate. There is a modest amount of time in hand for interventions.15:14
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
I am not terribly sure that I am delighted to be speaking here today, but it is my last hurrah as a member of the Justice Committee. There is an element of d...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Mention them again.
Colin Keir
SNP
No—I refuse to mention them again. Ms Grahame should just sit there. She has had her shot.Anyway, use of affirmative procedure will provide some parliamentar...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
Sometimes it takes weeks to hear repetition in the chamber, but when it does we tend to think, “Oh, no! Not that again.” However, we are less than an hour in...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and I declare my interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates.As members are aware, the UK Government ha...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Will Roderick Campbell give way?
Roderick Campbell
SNP
I am not sure that I have time, to be honest, but I will give way if the intervention is brief.