Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 10 September 2013
10 Sep 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Historic Environment Strategy
I am sure that that is true. Having read some of the commentary, I have understood what the organisations have said, but there is still a kernel of doubt lingering under the surface. As parliamentarians, part of our job is to winkle out the ideas and thinking that have helped to underpin decisions. As the cabinet secretary rightly says, there will be time to explore those issues in more detail in the future and I look forward to engaging with that debate, but with the information that we have at the moment it is important for us to flag up issues about which we have concerns.
There is also some concern about the properties in care, which it is proposed will transfer to the new body. The outline business case for the proposed new organisation suggests:
“In 10 years, the organisation will be Scotland’s leading heritage tourism provider.”
That statement seems to reinforce the particular concerns of some bodies that have an interest in the area, which believe that they will be asked to compete with the larger, state-backed organisation, if I can put it that way.
As we know, Historic Scotland is responsible for delivering the regulation of the historic environment in Scotland. It will be important to ensure that that role is not compromised. Clarity is key to the success of any regulatory regime, and I would like to hear more from the minister—not necessarily today; I appreciate that time is limited—about how possible conflicts of interest will be avoided in future.
It will also be important to ensure that the relationship between the proposed new body and local planning authorities is clear, and that the decisions about who does what and in what circumstances are understood by all who might be involved. Local planning authorities will also have to be properly resourced so that their decisions can be well informed. Work is already being done in that particular area, and I very much welcome it.
There is also a fear in the sector that a lot of expertise has been lost in recent years, so I welcome COSLA’s engagement with the strategy because it is important that that diminution, if it has occurred, is reversed as we go forward.
As colleagues will be aware, in England a similar merger has already taken place that seems to have led to the loss of a considerable amount of expertise. I know that the cabinet secretary has pledged to learn lessons from the English experience, and I welcome that. However, let me point out an additional fact to the cabinet secretary.
In speaking to two former culture secretaries recently, it became clear to me that the merger of the two organisations had been suggested to them by civil servants. I had the same experience and, as it turned out, all three of us rejected the idea as we did not believe that it was in the best interests of the historic environment to proceed in that way. Therefore, I was genuinely surprised to hear that the current cabinet secretary had decided to adopt what I believe to be a mistaken notion.
I hope that the cabinet secretary can allay my fears about the merger as we go forward, but I want to register the viewpoint at this stage. I had hoped to hear some considerable reassurances from the cabinet secretary explaining in detail why she has opted to go down the merger route, particularly as no option appraisal has been undertaken in respect of Historic Scotland. I would also like to have heard more about the functions of the new body—in particular, confirmation as to the future of the regulatory role, which as I have mentioned is currently performed by Historic Scotland. In giving those reassurances, the cabinet secretary could have taken the opportunity to spell out what she considers to be the benefits of a merger.
Being mindful that we are on the eve of the draft budget statement, I do not expect the cabinet secretary to have lots of money to put into this particular pot. I am sure that, even if she did, she would not want to usurp Mr Swinney’s right to make such announcements. However, I had hoped to hear confirmation of a commitment to ensure that the historic environment strategy would be adequately resourced in the future—the point that the Scottish Labour amendment seeks to make.
There is also some concern about the properties in care, which it is proposed will transfer to the new body. The outline business case for the proposed new organisation suggests:
“In 10 years, the organisation will be Scotland’s leading heritage tourism provider.”
That statement seems to reinforce the particular concerns of some bodies that have an interest in the area, which believe that they will be asked to compete with the larger, state-backed organisation, if I can put it that way.
As we know, Historic Scotland is responsible for delivering the regulation of the historic environment in Scotland. It will be important to ensure that that role is not compromised. Clarity is key to the success of any regulatory regime, and I would like to hear more from the minister—not necessarily today; I appreciate that time is limited—about how possible conflicts of interest will be avoided in future.
It will also be important to ensure that the relationship between the proposed new body and local planning authorities is clear, and that the decisions about who does what and in what circumstances are understood by all who might be involved. Local planning authorities will also have to be properly resourced so that their decisions can be well informed. Work is already being done in that particular area, and I very much welcome it.
There is also a fear in the sector that a lot of expertise has been lost in recent years, so I welcome COSLA’s engagement with the strategy because it is important that that diminution, if it has occurred, is reversed as we go forward.
As colleagues will be aware, in England a similar merger has already taken place that seems to have led to the loss of a considerable amount of expertise. I know that the cabinet secretary has pledged to learn lessons from the English experience, and I welcome that. However, let me point out an additional fact to the cabinet secretary.
In speaking to two former culture secretaries recently, it became clear to me that the merger of the two organisations had been suggested to them by civil servants. I had the same experience and, as it turned out, all three of us rejected the idea as we did not believe that it was in the best interests of the historic environment to proceed in that way. Therefore, I was genuinely surprised to hear that the current cabinet secretary had decided to adopt what I believe to be a mistaken notion.
I hope that the cabinet secretary can allay my fears about the merger as we go forward, but I want to register the viewpoint at this stage. I had hoped to hear some considerable reassurances from the cabinet secretary explaining in detail why she has opted to go down the merger route, particularly as no option appraisal has been undertaken in respect of Historic Scotland. I would also like to have heard more about the functions of the new body—in particular, confirmation as to the future of the regulatory role, which as I have mentioned is currently performed by Historic Scotland. In giving those reassurances, the cabinet secretary could have taken the opportunity to spell out what she considers to be the benefits of a merger.
Being mindful that we are on the eve of the draft budget statement, I do not expect the cabinet secretary to have lots of money to put into this particular pot. I am sure that, even if she did, she would not want to usurp Mr Swinney’s right to make such announcements. However, I had hoped to hear confirmation of a commitment to ensure that the historic environment strategy would be adequately resourced in the future—the point that the Scottish Labour amendment seeks to make.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-07622, in the name of Fiona Hyslop, on Scotland’s historic environment—the way forward.14:24
The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs (Fiona Hyslop)
SNP
I would like to start with a quote from “A Herbal” by the late Seamus Heaney:As between clear blue and cloud,Between haystack and sunset sky,Between oak tree...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Given the impact of climate change and the increasing cost of repairing and maintaining the historic tenements in our cities, will the minister review the op...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I hear what the member says—I think that she makes an extremely important point. A great deal of investment has to take place in the pre-1919 buildings. That...
Hanzala Malik (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I was just wondering whether the minister was going to make a statement in terms of an increase in the budget, particularly since the Commonwealth games are ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I remind members to speak through the chair.
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I am sure that Sandra White welcomed the investment in the statues on the Kelvin walkway. As the member well knows, a substantial investment was announced in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I remind members that, if they are participating in the debate, they should be in the chamber for the start of the speeches.14:41
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
In opening the debate for Labour, I endorse the cabinet secretary’s sentiments concerning John Bellany. He will be sadly missed, but he has left a significan...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I am sure that, as the bill passes through Parliament, we will have plenty of opportunities in committee and in the chamber to debate some of these issues, b...
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
I am sure that that is true. Having read some of the commentary, I have understood what the organisations have said, but there is still a kernel of doubt lin...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I cannot talk about the budget tomorrow, but I can reassure the member that over the last period, between 2011-12 and 2013-14, expenditure on properties and ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
You are approaching your last minute, Ms Ferguson.
Patricia Ferguson
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer.I appreciate that point and I accept that the historic environment is a very expensive sector in which to work and operate. Howe...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I thank the cabinet secretary for her good wishes—and Patricia Ferguson for hers, just prior to the debate. Culture is very close to my heart—not least becau...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
Only last night in Linlithgow, I heard a fantastic presentation by one of our local historians, Bruce Jamieson, about Linlithgow’s connection to James IV. In...
Liz Smith
Con
I thank the cabinet secretary for that intervention. Clearly, we could go on listing the other sites for which fantastic numbers have been announced recently...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
On the merger, there is some way to travel in terms of parliamentary scrutiny, but it is important that we put the staff first. Over a long period, the staff...
Liz Smith
Con
The cabinet secretary makes a fair point. There has been some support for the merger in various quarters, but Patricia Ferguson made some good points about t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We turn to the open debate, with speeches of a maximum of seven minutes, which should include any interventions.15:02
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP)
SNP
There is no denying just how blessed visually we are here in Scotland. We are blessed with breathtaking scenery and with the historic environment. We owe so ...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
The member makes an important point. We have supported long-distance travel for visits from places that are an hour and a half’s travel from some of our key ...
Graeme Dey
SNP
I absolutely agree with that.In passing, I recognise the tremendous work that Historic Scotland is doing to retain and safeguard the traditional skills that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I must keep members strictly to their seven minutes. I call Claire Baker, to be followed by Joan McAlpine.15:09
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to speak in today’s debate on Scotland’s historic environment. I will spend some time highlighting Fife’s assets as an illustration of Scotland’...
Fiona Hyslop
SNP
I am delighted to have accepted an invitation from David Torrance MSP to visit Wemyss caves. That visit will happen in the next couple of weeks.The issue has...
Claire Baker
Lab
I was aware of the cabinet secretary’s upcoming visit and was about to give it a positive mention.Earlier, the cabinet secretary talked a bit about active ci...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I remind members that they must keep to their seven minutes, or other speakers later in the debate will lose time. 15:16
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the Government’s ambitious strategy for Scotland’s historic environment over the next 10 to 15 years. I am delighted that we have the opportunity t...
James Dornan (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
SNP
Voltaire famously said,“We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation”,and we can see why when we look at the extraordinary historic environment from...