Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 02 May 2013
02 May 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Justice System
Perhaps I am the only one—I do not know—but I am pleased to speak in the debate. I take on board what everyone has said, but the more we discuss the community justice system, the better it is all round. I am sure that we will come back to a fuller debate.
I say that not only because I am a member of the Justice Committee but because I believe passionately in delivering a justice system that serves all the community and delivers a better outcome for victims, communities and offenders. It must also deliver positive outcomes for all, because that is what we are in the Parliament to do. It is difficult when we go out to communities and listen to the victims’ stories, but it is also difficult when we go into prison and speak to prisoners who have experienced the revolving-door system and had a chaotic lifestyle, perhaps even from childhood.
It is important that we debate the redesign of the community justice system. It will be better for everyone in society, not only in our local communities.
A number of people mentioned the three options for the CJAs. Members will probably be glad to know that I will not mention those, but I will make a small point about CJAs. Perhaps it is a failing on my part—I really do not know—but I have never had any contact with my local CJA. No one from it has contacted me, and I could not tell anyone who the members are. Perhaps, if some other members tell me their experience of CJAs, I will be able to understand the options better. I am sure that we will get further into that.
I will raise two areas that a number of members have mentioned: throughcare and delivery, and mentoring.
Like other members of the Justice Committee, I recently went on a visit. I visited Barlinnie prison in Glasgow and, when I spoke to the officers, agencies and prisoners, one thing came through clearly: the need for joined-up thinking and throughcare in relation to housing—which has been raised before—health and financial support. The prisoners I spoke to told me that, although they were visited by agencies that could provide housing, they received no advice about housing until they were released. When they turned up, there was no housing for them and they had to go into hostels. As Graeme Pearson mentioned, in some cases they were given sleeping bags. The prisoners told us that they did not want to go into the hostels because that would mean that they were going back into a life of crime and would have to sleep on the streets.
That must be looked at. I hope that the redesign of the community justice system will examine that in particular. I hope that it will also consider the simple matter of what time people get out of prison and how they can access social work and finance. It became clear that, although there are a number of agencies that do a fantastic job, they do not seem to meet together. There is a desperate need to look at the number of agencies, the services that they provide and whether there is joined-up thinking in throughcare.
The cabinet secretary mentioned the £7.7 million that has been given to extend the mentoring system. I am a great supporter of mentoring, as I have said in the chamber before. In particular, the extension of using prison staff and peer groups to mentor prisoners is a fantastic idea. That system provides support to vulnerable prisoners who lead chaotic lifestyles. It is not only about the prisoners but about the communities into which they are released and their families. Everyone in the Parliament should be extremely proud of the mentoring system and the fact that we are moving it on and delivering more.
Much has been said about reoffending. I take that on board, but we must also take on board the fact that progress has been made on tackling reoffending. The reoffending rates are at their lowest for more than a decade. Graeme Pearson mentioned the figures for 1999, which is more than 10 years ago. Recorded crime is also at a 37-year low.
We must also consider the fact that community payback orders, which members have mentioned, have been successfully implemented. Between April 2011 and March 2012, 10,228 orders were commenced. Although I realise that the system must be looked at, the whole-system approach for young people continues to be rolled out throughout Scotland, resulting in a decrease in the number of recorded crimes and offences committed by young people. There are positives, but we have to do something to move forward.
I think that we all agree that there is a revolving-door system and that, although progress has been made, we need to do something to stop that. As I said, I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I believe that the outcome of the consultation will go some way towards achieving proper community justice and stopping the revolving-door system, which is a blight not just on individuals but on entire communities.
16:15
I say that not only because I am a member of the Justice Committee but because I believe passionately in delivering a justice system that serves all the community and delivers a better outcome for victims, communities and offenders. It must also deliver positive outcomes for all, because that is what we are in the Parliament to do. It is difficult when we go out to communities and listen to the victims’ stories, but it is also difficult when we go into prison and speak to prisoners who have experienced the revolving-door system and had a chaotic lifestyle, perhaps even from childhood.
It is important that we debate the redesign of the community justice system. It will be better for everyone in society, not only in our local communities.
A number of people mentioned the three options for the CJAs. Members will probably be glad to know that I will not mention those, but I will make a small point about CJAs. Perhaps it is a failing on my part—I really do not know—but I have never had any contact with my local CJA. No one from it has contacted me, and I could not tell anyone who the members are. Perhaps, if some other members tell me their experience of CJAs, I will be able to understand the options better. I am sure that we will get further into that.
I will raise two areas that a number of members have mentioned: throughcare and delivery, and mentoring.
Like other members of the Justice Committee, I recently went on a visit. I visited Barlinnie prison in Glasgow and, when I spoke to the officers, agencies and prisoners, one thing came through clearly: the need for joined-up thinking and throughcare in relation to housing—which has been raised before—health and financial support. The prisoners I spoke to told me that, although they were visited by agencies that could provide housing, they received no advice about housing until they were released. When they turned up, there was no housing for them and they had to go into hostels. As Graeme Pearson mentioned, in some cases they were given sleeping bags. The prisoners told us that they did not want to go into the hostels because that would mean that they were going back into a life of crime and would have to sleep on the streets.
That must be looked at. I hope that the redesign of the community justice system will examine that in particular. I hope that it will also consider the simple matter of what time people get out of prison and how they can access social work and finance. It became clear that, although there are a number of agencies that do a fantastic job, they do not seem to meet together. There is a desperate need to look at the number of agencies, the services that they provide and whether there is joined-up thinking in throughcare.
The cabinet secretary mentioned the £7.7 million that has been given to extend the mentoring system. I am a great supporter of mentoring, as I have said in the chamber before. In particular, the extension of using prison staff and peer groups to mentor prisoners is a fantastic idea. That system provides support to vulnerable prisoners who lead chaotic lifestyles. It is not only about the prisoners but about the communities into which they are released and their families. Everyone in the Parliament should be extremely proud of the mentoring system and the fact that we are moving it on and delivering more.
Much has been said about reoffending. I take that on board, but we must also take on board the fact that progress has been made on tackling reoffending. The reoffending rates are at their lowest for more than a decade. Graeme Pearson mentioned the figures for 1999, which is more than 10 years ago. Recorded crime is also at a 37-year low.
We must also consider the fact that community payback orders, which members have mentioned, have been successfully implemented. Between April 2011 and March 2012, 10,228 orders were commenced. Although I realise that the system must be looked at, the whole-system approach for young people continues to be rolled out throughout Scotland, resulting in a decrease in the number of recorded crimes and offences committed by young people. There are positives, but we have to do something to move forward.
I think that we all agree that there is a revolving-door system and that, although progress has been made, we need to do something to stop that. As I said, I am pleased to speak in the debate, and I believe that the outcome of the consultation will go some way towards achieving proper community justice and stopping the revolving-door system, which is a blight not just on individuals but on entire communities.
16:15
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-06433, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on redesigning the community justice system.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I know that the mood in the chamber is more sombre than usual, given events and the debate that has just taken place, but I am grateful that members have agr...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Can the cabinet secretary clarify whether, if option B was chosen, consideration would be given to the fact that some local authorities that have areas of ve...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Those matters will have to be discussed in detail. The funding formula that we use takes account of the additional pressure that many areas face as a result ...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the cabinet secretary’s closing comments. We will take up his offer of further discussion outwith the forum of parliamentary debate.There is genera...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I think that Lewis Macdonald will be aware that, with the new governor at Polmont prison, there is a new culture and determination that the expression “purpo...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
I am grateful for that intervention. I do not doubt for a moment the commitment of many leaders in the Scottish Prison Service to achieving precisely that ch...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I welcome the debate because it gives Parliament the opportunity to examine why the current arrangement for strategic and operational responsibility with reg...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We move to the open debate, with speeches of six minutes. We have a little bit of time in hand for interventions.15:30
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
This week, I had the good fortune to be briefed by Rob Strachan, the chief officer of Lothian and Borders community justice authority. It is important to sta...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
The debate’s timing is rather unfortunate. The consultation principle has always been central to the Parliament, and it would have been better to wait until ...
Colin Keir (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
SNP
It is clear that there is a fair degree of agreement across the chamber this afternoon. I associate myself with many of the comments that other members have ...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I acknowledge the speeches from all members thus far and I associate myself with many of the comments that have been made. I welcome the cabinet secretary’s ...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Does Graeme Pearson agree that the meaningful and purposeful activity that he refers to can be delivered in so-called short-term sentences? Putting people in...
Graeme Pearson
Lab
Yes. When a prisoner is in custody 24/7, there are always avenues for delivery, if there is the will to deliver, the necessary support, the health interventi...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
Recorded crime is at a 37-year low, and the number of first-time offenders is falling. However, around half of the number who receive a short custodial sent...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
We know that the economic and social cost of offending and reoffending is immense, and we pour so many resources into picking up the pieces. Lives are ruined...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
Perhaps I am the only one—I do not know—but I am pleased to speak in the debate. I take on board what everyone has said, but the more we discuss the communit...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Today’s debate seems premature given that the consultation finished only two days ago and we are awaiting the responses and conclusions. However, like other ...
Sandra White
SNP
Perhaps Mary Fee will be able to educate me on the CJAs. She said that various members of CJAs had contacted her. Would she say that the CJAs work differentl...
Mary Fee
Lab
I think that CJAs work in broadly the same manner in different local authorities. I am perhaps fortunate in that I was a local authority member before I came...
Christine Grahame
SNP
Can I tempt Mary Fee with option D?
Mary Fee
Lab
I thank Christine Grahame for her intervention—I will hold my decision on option D for a bit longer, if that is all right.Before the debate, I had the opport...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
It has been highlighted already that the total economic and social cost of reoffending in Scotland is about £3 billion a year. According to the Audit Scotlan...
Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the debate and, like Sandra White, I am quite happy to speak on an important subject. It is important to get the structure to deliver community jus...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
We move to closing speeches. I call Annabel Goldie, who has six minutes or thereby.16:36
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I welcome both the Scottish Government’s recent consultation and this afternoon’s debate on redesigning the community justice system. That matters not only b...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I reiterate what other members have said about the timing of today’s debate. Two days after the closure of the consultation is perhaps a little too soon to d...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Did the member not listen when we said quite clearly that the proposal—whether it is A, B or C—would not come into effect until the spring of 2016? Given tha...
Jenny Marra
Lab
Fanciful or not, those are not my words but the words of a leader of a community justice authority, and they are a response to the cabinet secretary’s motion...